Do the non-elect have to die lost?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by convicted1, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. convicted1

    convicted1
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    I would have to say "yes" to this. God has chosen a people to redeem. He gave them to His Son, and He bore their sins upon the cross. He will save them to the uttermost. The rest will remain in their blindness. What say ye?


    Okay.......go!!!!!


    [​IMG]
     
  2. Inspector Javert

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    Do they "have to"? NO. We simply know that they Will. But they don't have to. The prophets say they don't have to at all.

    Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
    Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
    Eze 18:32
    For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.



    Eze 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
    Eze 33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
    Eze 33:10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
    Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


    The Scriptures are so very simple. If you die lost........it's because you refused to turn and repent.....not because you weren't "chosen" beforehand.
     
    #2 Inspector Javert, Nov 8, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2013
  3. convicted1

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    First off, thanks for you timely replies to my two threads....:thumbsup:


    I don't disagree with these passages whatsoever, and I agree with them. However.....there's always an "however" or "but" in a deabte, ain't there......none of us can do anything positive towards God w/o first acting upon the Holy Spirit's working upon us, drawing us to the Father. Those who God the Father gave to God the Son, to redeem them from their sins, God moves upon them in such a way that He causes them to repent of their sins. The non-elect, He doesn't. He chose a people to redeem from the foundation of the world(Eph. 1:4). He gave them to His Son to atone for their sins, and He will lose none of them(John 17:12).



    No one can "turn and repent" in a fallen state. It takes God to first act upon a person to make them responseABLE, and then they are able to respond to the gospel call. Not all receive the effectual call, but we are commanded to preach to any and all to save them that God has purposed to save via the Son.
     
  4. preacher4truth

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    God has for His own purpose decreed it to be so.
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Thats a can of worms Willis. What brings a person to salvation? Can and will they believe ( ontheirown)? I don't see it....we are too sinful. But when Sinclair Ferguson (a staunch Calvinist in his own rite) quotes Samuel Rutherford ...."the reprobate has exactly the same warrant to believe in Jesus Christ as do the elect " well that's something to pause to consider.
     
  6. preacher4truth

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    True, and this verifies the truths of Scripture and the OP.

    Though I respect both men that is all pure conjecture and sentimentalism. I believe there is this in all believers though because we simply do not understand the 'why' of this mystery this side of the sun.
     
  7. Winman

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    Why would God punish someone who isn't repsonse-ABLE? Does that seem just to you?

    And all men are in a fallen state when they turn and repent, no man receives the Spirit until AFTER he repents.

    Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    So, men do have the ability to turn or repent at God's reproof or correction, and this is why it is just to condemn men who do not turn at his reproof, because they are response-ABLE.
     
  8. Inspector Javert

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    So, then....the direct answer to God's question "for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
    Is quite simple:

    God wants them to, and always intended for them to. In fact, it is "his pleasure"....since he will have "ALL his pleasure".

    But, then, when God says he takes "No pleasure" in the death of the wicked, it's not actually (strictly speaking) "true" in the sense that you and I use the term. He didn't really mean all that! for goodness sake!
    For, if he DID mean that.... then he would have irresistibly regenerated all of them. A Calvinist dogma forces you to affirm some truly awkward notions indeed.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    The difference between Arminianism and Calvinism is that Arminians add "yes really!" to texts like

    "God so Loved the WORLD that He gave... that WHOSOEVER believeth" John 3 -- "yes really".

    God sent His son "to be the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2 -- "yes really".

    "God is not partial" Romans 2:11 -- "yes really"

    "I STAND at the door and KNOCK - IF ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3

    "Come unto Me ALL who are weary and heavy ladened.." Matt 11 "Yes REALL".

    "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32 - "yes Really"

    "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Peter 3 -- 'yes really!"

    "He is the light that coming into the world ENLIGHTENS EVERY man" John 1 "yes really"

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1 -- "yes really!"

    There is no such thing in the Bible as "Come unto ME - just the FEW of Matt 7 whom I arbitrarily decide to love and save in extreme partiality to some and against the MANY of Matt 7" as is sometimes much imagined in Calvinism's model.

    Does God "know" the future? Yes ! How does He preserve the free will statements of the Bible as stated above while still knowing the future? "Hmmmm it is harder to BE God than Calvinism at first imagined".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Indeed. So many texts to wrench, edit and down size and "so little time" for Calvinism to do it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. JohnDeereFan

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    Do you know the difference between the General Call and the Effectual Call?

    Also, do you know the difference between Israel and Gentiles?
     
  12. Winman

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    Where do the scriptures tell us about the general and effectual calls? I'd love to read that scripture.
     

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