Do the "un-elect" know this about themselves?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by dragonfly, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. dragonfly

    dragonfly
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    Although I am not a Calvinist, I would like to ask this question.

    Do any or all of the people who God has decided not to elect know this? I mean, are they conscious of this fact or do they simply live deceived, thinking that they could trust in Christ but actually not being able to even if they wanted to?
     
  2. jcjordan

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    If a person wanted to trust Christ, then they would be one of the elect. There's no such thing as a member of the unelect who wants to be saved, but God says "No, you're not one of my elect".
     
    #2 jcjordan, Aug 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2008
  3. webdog

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    Wrong. Everyone wants to live forever (Ecc. 3:11), even the reprobate. This is put there by God. Your reasoning is flawed. Elect doesn't equal Christian.
     
  4. Jarthur001

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    Election does not stop anyone that wants to be saved, from being saved.
     
  5. StefanM

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    The non-elect do not desire to repent from their sins and to trust in Christ for their salvation.
     
  6. Jarthur001

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    Brother web,

    While I agree with your statement about man wanting to live forever, you failed see the real problem. The problem is that man wants to live forever, but still remain in his sin. They have fallen for the easy-believe story of being saved from Hell, with no change. Salvation is being saved from our sins and people are not willing to give up their sins, or will say they give them up at a later date, after they sin a bit more, but that day never comes.
     
  7. Jarthur001

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    Amen brother. :)
     
  8. Havensdad

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    Ecclesiastes is man's wisdom under the sun. It is things that Solomon has observed. They do not teach absolutes.

    Also, they want Eternity under their own rules. They are not willing to "deny themselves pick up there cross and follow Christ".
     
  9. donnA

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    Sure people wnat to live forever, but when the unbeleiver says this they aren't talking about spiritual like we are, they mean physically, the body they have now keeps on going, they never have to die physically.
     
  10. donnA

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    :thumbsup:
     
  11. pinoybaptist

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    Everyone wants to live forever, and everyone wants to be blessed of God, but not according to God's terms.
    That is the very purpose of the gospel, to give instruction, to point to the One who is the source of living forever, the One who reconciles sinners to Himself because it is His desire to do so (and that is his term: that His salvation is OF Himself, not the filthy rags of self-righteousness that fallen man has to offer).
    And the proof of man's fallen state is manifold.
    The Preacher himself is proof of this, as he desired pleasures and riches, wisdom and power, apart from God, and learned to his chagrin that this is not possible.
    Mankind's religious history is proof of this, as we now see in our time the many altars that paganism have built to the gods that they have made up, and from where they offered their many pointless and stained animal and human sacrifices to their god/s in the hope of attaining life, and of blessings and abundance on this earth for their tribe/s.
    Israel's own history is proof of this.
    God created His national people out of one man whom He called out from among the heathen, and through the loins of this one man created a nation that had fallen under bondage to the world (Egypt).
    He sent His redemption, in Moses, and revealed Himself to them, giving them His Name, Jehovah, yet that nation's history is a repetition of constant falling away, and restoration, falling away, rebellion, and restoration, until finally they crucified Jehovah in the flesh, and even now continously reaps the fruits of their rebellion.
    The history of the New Testament church is proof of this.
    As Jehovah God, in Christ, chose 12, taught these 12, and gave them the doctrines that He heard from His own father, and commanded these 12 to go to all the nations, yet these 12 sat at Jerusalem, until He had to send them Saul, whom He turned into Paul, and whom He used to spread His Name among the Gentiles, the nations.
    Yet after these 12 have gone back to be with their Lord, the Doctrines once delivered to the saints have been so polluted, so contorted, and so watered down, that it is hardly recognizable from the doctrines once delivered to the saints, and once again the Absolute Sovereignty of God in all things, from Creation to the Salvation of His people, is relegated to lip-service status.
    Our own contemporary history is proof of this, as wars have become fiercer, more impersonal, and excused with the phrase "the interest of the people".
    As we see in our midst the rise of many "teachers" who have no fear in publishing their own thoughts about what Scripture says and call these thoughts pure doctrines, and all others who disagree as heretics, and as we look around and marvel at the so many congregations and aggrupations who pride themselves in their fellowships and numbers, tooting their own horns, instead of allowing the true Owner to invite them to His table.
    And outside of that "world" you have atheists, pagans, more witches, who trample on their Creator like they could get away with it.
    True, everybody desires life, and blessings, according to their terms, even the "elect", and that only magnifies grace all the more, and points to God as Love, in Person.
     
  12. Goldie

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    This basically is stating "unconditional election", which is a Calvinist doctrine, which means that some are elected to heaven, while others are elected to hell, and they have absolutely nothing to do with it, and can only hope that God has elected them to heaven and not hell.

    Then they "confirm" the above doctrine with the following scripture - John 15:16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

    But when you look at the entire verse and not just the "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you", you'll clearly see that it's stating that we are chosen to go and bring forth fruit and has absolutely nothing to do with being chosen to go to either heaven or hell. So what it's rightfully stating is that every Christian is chosen to preach the Gospel and win souls for Christ, i.e., the fruit of a Christian is other Christians and this is confirmed in Proverbs 11:30 - The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

    The true Gospel is rather plain and simple - those who go to heaven, go because they come to Jesus Christ and trust Him as their Saviour. Those who go to hell do so because they refuse to come to Jesus Christ and don't trust Him as their Saviour.
     
  13. blackbird

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    BINGO!!!

    The Elect are the Whosoever Will's---------I don't see anything too difficult about that!!!!

    Bro. David
     
  14. jcjordan

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    Yep, you preach it, Goldie. God's done all He can do. Your ultimate hope in salvation is up to YOU! The power of choice!!!
     
  15. Jarthur001

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    The whosoever wills is a call that goes out to all of mankind. Are you saying that all of mankind are the elect of God?:confused:
     
  16. ReformedBaptist

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    Oh please tell me that was sarcasm. :praying:
     
  17. webdog

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    No, the whosoever "will's" are the ones from all mankind who "will". But I think you know that already.
     
  18. StefanM

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    The question is this:

    What is the sine qua non of election?

    Is it God's choice or man's?

    Predestination based on foreknowledge is not God choosing man; it is man choosing God.
     
  19. donnA

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    no one needs to be elected to hell, we've all earned it. The unsaved don't care, heaven or hell, it is only the Holy Spirit in us who causes us to think about heaven as a place we want to be.

    No actually, theres way too many verses to use, it's so intertwined in scripture, OT and NT.
     
  20. ReformedBaptist

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    This type of theology I can find no better word for it than disgusting. It robs God of the glory due His name. And is so easily refuted by Scripture I am at a loss where to begin. I will share what was a part of our Scripture reading this last Lord's Day.

    2 Timothy 1
    8Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

    9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

    And this,

    James 1:8
    Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

    And this,

    Ephesians 1
    4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    This is sufficient to refute the above claim that God's election is based on man choosing Him. God is the one who chooses, not man. And he elects based upon His own sovereign purpose and will.
     

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