Do We ALL Agree that Man is Both Depraived And Spiritual Inable To Come To God?

Do any of you have any Baptist confessions that would corroborate your positions? Hint Hint :thumbs:

 

Those who believe that we can seek God, as He commanded, and actually find Him, are missing the entire point. He said this to prove one thing; We cannot do it. Just like the Law we are commanded to keep, We cannot do it. Only one could.

To misunderstand this is to misunderstand a whole lot, and is to miss the big picture entirely.

I hope, Jesusfan, you see this.

I hope all do.

- Peace

 

Now stop right there and retract your statement. This is what Skandelon was warning you about. No one here said or believes that man can save himself. Who are you slandering? Me? Then apologize! Better yet, quote me where I said "Man, seeking to save himself." It is such remarks and slander that are out of line and absolutely unnecessary.

John 3:16 supports my believe: "that whosoever believes in him should not perish..."
--One must BELIEVE in order to be saved, not with God's faith, but with his own.

That is a very weak interpretation of that verse. It doesn't fly with the rest of Scripture--all the Scripture (hundreds of verses), all of which commands us to believe, have faith, to call upon, the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Does God call upon the name of the Lord for you? Or is this an action that you must obey? (Rom.10:9,10,13)

Again, more slander as such. Where have I said this. Where have I said anything remotely close that one must keep the law. If you think you know what I believe, then please don't think at all. Just quote me instead. It is obvious that you don't know what I believe. So quote me every time you are going to refute what you think I believe.

The problem here is, you rarely quote the Bible, but depend on your philosophy instead. Practice what you preach. Then I might believe you.

You are replying to this quote:

Here is what you said:

Then you say:

Again you misrepresent me. Where did I say anything about goodness being in man. Please, my children learned how to read at the age of four. Perhaps you need to go back to school and learn how to read. Quote me. Don't try and say what I believe. Quote me.

What basic truth do I disagree with? Why do you deny the Scriptures which say: "Seek ye the Lord while he yet may be found." What truths?

More misrepresentation. Where did I say one can keep the laws of God?

You missed the point of this story of the publican. He prayed to the Lord in faith believing God would answer him. He first prayed. It was in his own faith that he prayed. It was only after he prayed that God showed him mercy. First he had to put his trust, his faith in God.

Your above example is a very good example. The publican went to the Temple on his own. No one forced him to go. He prayed on his own; no one forced him. His faith was his own; not God's. Mercy was granted after he prayed, not before.
--That is the same all throughout the Scriptures. Even the OT prophets testify to the same thing.

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)
--Whoever believes in his name shall receive remission of sins.
You must believe, not with God's faith but with your own.

That Christ fulfilled all the law? Are you misrepresenting me again.
Quote what I said. How about quoting what I didn't say. That is probably what you are doing isn't it? Have you ever heard of the term "ethical"?

Here is the quote you are arguing against. I will provide it for others:

"Implying that man is able to do what? Your implications are not what I said!
You state your implication: "the inability of lost man to reach God." I never said that, and that again is a total misrepresentation and more slander. This is what you do throughout your posts. From now on quote me.
I believe he came to us, and died for us. I never said anything differently.
If you don't understand what I post then you shouldn't respond to them.
If you don't read them carefully as to comprehend them, then you shouldn't respond to them.
If you are not going to be ethical in your responses and deliberately misrepresent what I say, then you shouldn't respond to them.

 

My recollection of the Bible is that as soon as Adam and Eve sinned, they hid from God. had God not pursued them, there would have been no communication between them. 'No one can come to Me unless the Father....draws him' (John 6:44). Praise God, He provided a sacrifice and a robe of righteousness for Adam and Eve, forshadowing the sacrifice of our Lord at Calvary. 'For the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost.'

'For I know in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells' (Rom 7:18). 'Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God' (John 3:3).

Both faith and repentance are the gifts of God (Acts 11:16; 16:14; Eph 2:1-8). I'm sorry I don't have time to expand on these texts as I should, but they seem pretty clear to me.

Steve

 

There is nothing in those verses to say that God gives faith to the unregenerate. If there is please demonstrate it.

 

What you say concerning Adam is true, which has been my point. At the time they ate of that fruit and sinned they were declared dead. They went and hid. It was God that pursued them, true. It was also God that communicated them, and for some time. How can a dead man communicate with God? Not until Genesis 3:21 was Adam reconciled with God, when God himself sacrificed an animal and shed blood on Adam's behalf that Adam was spiritually reconciled with the Lord. Before that time he was a "spiritually dead" person talking with God.

I don't disagree with the Scripture you provide. I may disagree with your interpretation of them.

Those scriptures don't speak to the doctrine of total depravity. The first one speaks of Paul's struggle with his carnal nature, and the second speaks of the new birth.

 

Did I say you said you were saving yourself? Uh, no. This is the problem and is what you are hoping to find. You believe man can find God but you are wrong. I will get to the rest later. Be it known I never said you said youresavving yourself. Provide exact proof I concisely laid this to your charge or YOU stop it.

 

DHK, you readily admitted that Adam died spiritually and then posed the question, "How can a corpse respond?"

But then we read, "By grace are ye saved, through faith........." One gift of God which includes His grace including faith.... How then can a corpse respond except he be regenerated by God, followed or demonstrated by man's expression of belief through the gift of faith. In every instance it is God's first action and man's reaction. It is not the other way around.......by any scripture.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Well, as I say, they seem pretty clear to me, but here goes.

Acts 11:16. 'When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life' I take it that one can't repent unto life without also believing (compare Matt 4:17 with Mark 1:15). These Gentiles didn't repent under their own power; God granted (gave) repentance to them.

Acts 16:14. Lydia didn't open her own heart to receive Paul's message. Nor did Paul open her heart by the power of his message. 'The Lord opened her heart to receive the things spoken by Paul.'

Eph 2:1-9. When we were dead in trespasses and sin, God made us alive. We were saved by the grace of God through faith, but that faith was not something we worked up for ourselves, it is a gift that God gives to elect sinners (v8). It is we who believe, but it is God who enables us to do so.

Titus 3:5 tells us that God saves us purely according to His mercy, and that He does through the New Birth of water and Spirit (John 3:5. cf. 1Cor 6:11); the washing away of our sins and renewal by the Holy Spirit. It is God the Holy Spirit who opens the heart of a sinner and enables them to repent and to trust in Christ for salvation. Praise His Name!

Steve

 

God influences and we (all) are required to respond. God tells us to seek Him; I don't believe these are empty words to totally deprived men.

(Deu 4:29) But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

(1Ch 16:11) Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.

(1Ch 16:12) Remember his marvelous works that he hath done, his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth;

(1Ch 22:19) Now set your heart and your soul to seek the LORD your God; arise therefore, and build ye the sanctuary of the LORD God, to bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and the holy vessels of God, into the house that is to be built to the name of the LORD.

(1Ch 28:9) And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off forever.

(2Ch 11:16) And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.

(2Ch 12:14) And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.


(2Ch 15:2) And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

(2Ch 15:12) And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;

(2Ch 15:13) That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

(2Ch 30:18) For a multitude of the people, even many of Ephraim, and Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet did they eat the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good LORD pardon every one

(2Ch 30:19) That prepareth his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.

(Ezr 7:10) For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.

(Psa 14:2) The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

(Psa 22:26) The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live forever.

(Psa 27:4) One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.

(Psa 27:8) When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.

(Psa 34:10) The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing.

(Psa 40:16) Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified.

(Psa 69:6) Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord GOD of hosts, be ashamed for my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded for my sake, O God of Israel.

(Psa 83:16) Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.

(Psa 105:3) Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.

(Psa 105:4) Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

(Pro 28:5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.


(Isa 55:6) Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

(Hos 10:12) Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

(Amo 5:4) For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:

(Amo 5:6) Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Bethel.

(Amo 5:14) Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.


(Zep 2:3) Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.


(Act 15:17) That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

(Act 17:27) That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

 

The book of Acts is a transitional book, and a book of history. When it comes to the subject of repentance, I would challenge you to see if you could find repentance as part of the gospel message in the epistles. It is not there.
However, even dealing with this passage, note that there is no repentance from anything.
The verse you quoted in not 16 but 18. Here is what vs. 17 says:

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? (Acts 11:17)
--God only gave gifts on those that believed. Belief came first.
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (Acts 11:18)
--Faith came first. It wasn't a gift from God.
The phrase "God also to the Gentiles (nations) granted repentance unto life" refers to the fact that now the gospel has gone out to the other nations (not just the Jews), and they too have the opportunity to be saved. If the word "granted repentance" meant gift in a salvic way, then all the gentiles of the world would be saved right there and then. Rather, now all gentiles were being given the opportunity to be saved. The gospel was no longer confined to just the Jews.

I have been declaring this truth all along.
Where does faith come from. It is not a gift from God. It comes from the Word of God.
"Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God." (Rom.10:17).
That is the Biblical answer.

Yes, faith is not something we work up in ourselves.
But it is not a gift, and that passage does not say it is. Examine it carefully.
The subject is "You". The verb is "saved."
By faith are you saved through grace. There are two adverbial prepositional phrases there that tell us how and the means by which we are saved by: grace and faith.
It is the gift of God. What is the gift of God? Salvation is the gift of God. That is what the subject is all about. You are saved. How? By grace. By what means? By faith. IT (salvation) is a gift of God. IT (salvation) is not of yourselves. IT (salvation) is not of works; lest any man should boast.

The Holy Spirit definitely has his place in the salvation of a sinner. There is no disputing that. But he doesn't give faith to the unregenerate. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that. In fact it teaches the opposite. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Not, believe with God's faith and thou shalt be saved.

 

You said corpse, Jim, not I. The Calvinist defines "death" as corpse. It is a wrong definition and has led to many errors in theology. The definition of "death" is simply separation. When Adam died he was separated from God spiritually. In order to be restored to fellowship blood had to be shed. However, it is apparent that he was able to communicate with God before that happened. Death does not mean corpse, lifelessness, etc. It means separation. People in hell will be separated from God for all eternity. They will be alive, but separated from God. What makes them dead is the separation. They will still be able to feel pain.

 

Why is corpse the first definition turned to for death? A corpse is a result of death, not the definition of it in the same way decomposition, sadness and stench are...but these are never given to define death.

 

What you accuse me of here is unfortunate. None of what you say is close to what I have said.

My entire intent for my post is to show that God shows us that we cannot keep the things He commands in order to show our fallen state.

All other "slander" and "misrepresentations" and implications you see here are coming from yourself, and are not from me, and are unfounded but this is how you come to me constantly.

If I wanted to say the things you've said, believe me, I would say them plainly.

I am a Christian following God the best I can. Nothing you've accused me of is true nor is my intent, nor was it even said in my post.

Please refer to the second sentence of my post here to garner my entire purpose and intent for my post which you've turned to be malicious all on your own.

There is not one thing I need to retract. The wise can see this.

- Grace and Peace to you

 

Note, I quote what you say. Why don't you do the same? By not doing so you end up with misrepresentations, innuendo, and slander.

And so?? I never was talking about the law. That is a red herring. I don't disagree with one unable to keep the law. That point is entirely unrelated. Thus the need to put in quotes what you are referring to.

No they weren't. They were valid. You attributed to me things I don't believe. That is slander.

You have said quite a bit plainly--most of it false.

If it is not true then why was I able to quote it word for word, and then respond to it as such?

I don't know what your purpose is when you falsely accuse a brother.

Reread your post. Why do you misrepresent what I believe. Do you really feel yourself qualified to post what I believe when you don't even know who I am. Why not quote what I say, rather than assume what I believe?

 

Excellent post #52 from Benjamin. Calvinists will focus exclusively on three or four verses that says men do not seek God, verses that if read in context is speaking of especially wicked men or fools (atheists), to teach Total Inability, while completely ignoring nearly three dozen verses that show men can and do seek God. This is not rightly dividing the word of God.

This is not to say men could seek God without his grace, if God did not reveal himself to men, no man could seek the true God. But any man who will hear, learn, and be taught of God can seek him.

 

This is what you need to check into my friend, what you accuse me of is all unfounded assumption.

If I wanted to say what you "assume" I said, I would tell you plainly and concisely.

Now, back to truth, God said these things to show we cannot keep them. Just like when He commanded the Law which we could not keep.

I seriously pray you deeply consider these things without another hasty reaction and response.

- Grace and Peace to you DHK

 

Seeking and worshipping Satan is not "seeking God"


20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.


Robert Snow.....calvinists are not answering because the blind are leading the blind. To deny all died in Adam is to deny the foundational aspect of the cross......at that one point in time...all sinned...at that point in time all died.
Adam sin imputed Christ righteousness imputed.....it is a package deal