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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jan 4, 2012.
Are we all still with same degree of Free will as Adam was created with , or not?
Not at all.
In the natural man (unbeliever):
Eyes (intellectual and rational mind) darkened. (Romans 1:21, Romans 11:10, Eph. 4:18 )
State of will is a spirit, wicked and powerless. (Ec. 8:8, Matt 12:45)
Body destroyed. (1 Cor. 5:5, Matt 10:28, Romans 6:6)
Heart (emotions, imaginations) evil. (Gen. 8:21, Jer. 3:17, Matt. 9:4, Heb. 3:12)
Strength powerless, useless, stench. (Gen 4:12, Ps. 37:17, Isa 64:6)
There is NO FREE will! There are no free consequences to sin or righteousness.
Hopefully, some of those holding to the views of free will of man for salvation will weigh in here and now!
No! No! No!
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]What makes you think Adam had free will? If strict Calvinism is adhered to Adam had no choice except to fall because it was ordained of God. If man was elect before the foundation of the world then Adam had to sin based on Calvinism. So to the question do we have free will today as did Adam. Yes there is no difference. He chose and we choose. He was awake in his choosing and we have to be awaken to choose, but we both choose. I hold that in the mist of God's sovereign will man exercises free will. Both election and free will working together without one overriding the other.
My friend. That's a good question. It is true that we (Adam and the rest of mankind) can choose, but Adam was without sin when he made his choice. He unlike the rest of mankind was free from sin and had the free will to not sin.
Are you saying that you have no choice but to sin?
I am saying that if I truly had free will then I would have the ability to never sin, but that is impossible as sin is my very nature.
Think of sin as a jail cell. I have the freedom to run around, the freedom to jump and down, but I do not have the freedom to leave.
Are you aware that your moniker says that the Messiah is a slave?
No offense but that makes no sense. You can choose not to sin sometimes but not always? That does not agree with the bible. According to the bible there is always a way of escape.
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
The problem today is that we have become sin deniers. Many claim we cannot live with no sin thus releasing ourselves of the responsibility and guilt for our actions. The truth is all sin is a willful choice that we do not have to commit. Only when we take total responsibility for our sin can we confess it.
I would challenge you to name me just one sin you have ever done that you had to do. Just one because if you had to do it then you are not responsible. God is not judging man for things he is not personally responsible for. All sin is a willful choice.Are you in the habit of disciplining your children for things they cannot do? I hope not. By the way neither does God. Every sin is a choice to do. There are no sins that come from mistakes.
Christ slave or slave of Christ
My friend. If we had free will then our will would be stronger than the need to sin. If we had free will then we would have the power to NEVER sin.
Ultimately there is no escape from our sinful nature until we are given our new spiritual bodies. This is not to be confused with the Holy Spirit giving us the tools to battle our flesh.
Sin Nature?!!! Your argument does not hold water. If Adam had freewill, then he would not have eaten based on your assumption. Freewill does not keep one from sinning it allows for it as well as it allows for not sinning. Also you make my point. Our will is stronger then sin. That is the problem. When we are lost our will is what we always do (free will) and after we are saved we most of the time we do the will of God and sometimes our will (again free will).
Sin nature?!!! You argument has sin still being the master, but the bible says it is not.
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
We do not have to sin, ever! It is always a free will choice.
You did not answer my question. Name me one sin you have ever done you had to do.
Let me ask you all a question. Was Adam and Eve saved because of election? Was their names written in the book of life before the foundation of the world?
My friend. EXACTLY! Thus the fall. Adam's sin was egregious because he had everything including free will to NEVER sin, but he did anyway with no sin nature whatsoever; plunging mankind into the depths of sin by passing his now sin nature unto us.
God gave Adam and Eve the opportunity to repent but the fall caused Adam and Eve to take their focus off God and placed it one each other.
So name me one sin you have done that you had to do because that would point to not having free will. I agree that their sin was egregious, but my point is that ours is just as egregious but most are denying their responsibility for their actions by claiming it is impossible not to sin as you are doing. Again name me one sin you have had to do. You had absolutely no choice in the matter. I believe they had free will and we also have free will.
Adam and Eve were saved because they 'believed' the little revelation they were given and only the elect can believe.
Then that means they could not have had free will. If it is only the elect and election is done before the foundation of the world they had to sin (no free will) to be in the elect and be saved.
Name me one sin you have ever done that you had to do. One sin you had no choice in the matter.
My friend. You are going to the extreme. Adam was free from sin. I am not free from sin but I have no excuse to sin either.
It's not that I have to do sin but that everything I do is tainted with sin. My sin nature runs so deep that even when I do good deeds it not free from sin. My deeds are affected by my sin, which is why God says, all our good deeds are like filthy rags to Him.
God was speaking to the lost not the saved in that passage about filty rags. Again explain to me how Adam was elected by God before the foundation of the world to be saved and he still had free will not to sin and cause the fall?