Do we have free will?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Jarlaxle, Oct 22, 2003.

  1. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle
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    I think I have free will, but I also believe that God knows everything including what I will do next.

    If God knows it will happen, then there is no chance it will not happen.

    If there is no chance for me to do anything other than what God already knows I will do, then how can I conclude that I have a choice?

    Arn't the ideas of free will and God's perfect knowledge of what I will do mutually exclusive ideas?
     
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    God knows what you will wear tomorrow, He does not pre-determine it. He knows what you will choose to wear, as well as He already knows all of your choices. Foreknowledge does not equal predestination. God is outside of time, it is our time conscious minds that cause all of the difficulty here.
     
  3. Jarlaxle

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    Ya, that is along the same lines I am thinking too.. but do you, or anyone, have any analogies that might help?
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Don't know if there are any good human analogies for this supernatural truth. Would be interested to see if anyone else does. Isaiah 55 helps me accept things like thing by faith - God's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.
     
  5. JGrayhound

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    If he knows it before you choose it...that means you could not choose other than what God already knows. Your "choice" is now eliminated.

    BTW, I think you misunderstand the Biblical concept of "foreknowledge"
     
  6. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    I am glad you said that you "think" I misunderstand God's foreknowledge. I "think" you and I have different perceptions of God's foreknowledge.
     
  7. Yelsew

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    If he knows it before you choose it...that means you could not choose other than what God already knows. Your "choice" is now eliminated.

    BTW, I think you misunderstand the Biblical concept of "foreknowledge"
    </font>[/QUOTE]If that's the case, there goes God's GRACE out the window, right along with Choice! There is no reason for God's grace if man has no choice. There is no reason for God's only Son, and no reason for Atonement. If everthing hinges on God's knowledge of what will happen. there is absolutely no need of 'time' in the human realm.

    However, in my reading of scripture, there are many concepts that when considered in the whole scheme indicate to me that God established that man should have the choice of his eternal destiny on the basis of knowledge that God makes available to man. God's salvation is based on one thing only and that is the FAITH condition of man's spirit when man's natural life ends.

    Works cannot save, sins are paid for, effectively removing them from the judgment of man and the statement by Jesus that "believers, those with faith, are not judged".

    With all the "work of Salvation" already done for man, God leaves it up to man to have Faith, that which separates the sheep from the goats. FAITH is the only thing that man can contribute to salvation, and it is the only thing that God has none of. God cannot give man faith, because God has none to give.

    All-knowing, All-seeing God has no need of "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen: What could God hope for? What is it God cannot see?

    God requires man to have FAITH in God in order for man to be saved. So it must be that God gives man the choice of his own eternal life.

    Does God know who will? Yes.
    Does God know when? Yes.
    Does God cause individual man to have faith? Probably not, else man is saved while under duress, instead of under Grace. Saved without his own consent! Such a condition would negate the Gospel message that the Disciples were to take to the world. It would also negate the words of God in the form of man, which say "whosoever will may come". It would be cruel to whet the appetite of a man who seeks God only to slam the door in his face because he is not "of the elect".
     
  8. Felix

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    Dear Jarlaxle, [​IMG]

    It does not have to be! Ask yourself this instead: Did God predestine because He foreknew, or did He foreknew because he predestined? Were you elected because you believe, or do you believe because you were elected? Your ansers to these questions will tell whether you are a Calvinist or an Arminian.... [​IMG]

    Calvinists do not argue about, and do not disagree about, the reality or the psychology of human choice; though Arminians do not altogether see this, and sometimes speak as if determinism involved a doctrine of psychological compulsion. But the Calvinist's denial of ‘free-will’ has nothing to do with the psychology of action. That human choices are spontaneous and not forced, we all know and affirm; it is, indeed, fundamental to the Calvinist's position to do so. It is man’s total inability to save himself, and the sovereignty of Divine grace in his salvation, that Calvinists affirm when they deny ‘free-will’, and it is the contrary that Arminians affirm when they maintain ‘free-will.’ The ‘free-will’ in question was ‘free-will’ in relation to God and the things of God. Calvinists do not say that man through sin has ceased to be man (which is the Arminians’ persistent misconception of this meaning), but that man through sin has ceased to be good. He has now no power to please God. Sin affects every aspect of our being: the body, the soul, the mind, the will, and so forth. Sin reaches into every aspect of our lives, finding no shelter of isolated virtue. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. To be under sin is to be controlled by our sin nature. Sin is a weight or burden that presses downward on the soul. To be dead in sin is to be in a state of moral and spiritual bondage. By nature we are slaves to sin.

    When God works in us, the will is changed under the sweet influence of the Spirit of God. Once more it desires and acts, not of compulsion, but of its own desire and spontaneous inclination. One could wish, indeed, that a better term was available for this discussion than the accepted one, necessity, which cannot accurately be used of either man’s will or God’s. Its meaning is too harsh, and foreign to the subject; for it suggests some sort of compulsion, and something that is against one’s will, which is no part of the view under debate. The will, whether it be God’s or man’s, does what it does, good or bad, under no compulsion, but just as it wants or pleases, as if totally free.

    Many insist that the Reformed position teaches irresistible grace on the unwilling. Resurrection is not an action of force against will: it is the bringing of new life to the dead.

    Hope this helps a little. Sorry for being a little long. [​IMG]

    Felix
     
  9. Yelsew

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    To Omniscience the words foreknowledge and predestination do not exist. They are figments of imagination for the human who does not understand Omniscience.

    There is nothing that God has not known from before the foundation of the world. Therefore everything that happens in the creation, God knew before creating it. Everything about man God knew before man existed.

    If there was even one thing that God did not know, it would mean that God did not know all and therefore is subject to surprise.
     
  10. Hardsheller

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    To Omniscience the words foreknowledge and predestination do not exist. They are figments of imagination for the human who does not understand Omniscience.

    There is nothing that God has not known from before the foundation of the world. Therefore everything that happens in the creation, God knew before creating it. Everything about man God knew before man existed.

    If there was even one thing that God did not know, it would mean that God did not know all and therefore is subject to surprise.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Then God knows who is going to accept him and who is going to reject him long before they make that human "choice".

    So from God's point of view - Not frail human thought - Your destiny and my destiny is already settled in heaven before we are born.

    How does that differ with what we Calvinists claim when we say some are predestined to life eternal and some are not? :confused:
     
  11. Yelsew

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    I believe

    1. that God established the requirement for salvation ... Faith in Him

    2. the means whereby man is justified before God, The atonement by the blood of Jesus God's only Son;

    so that

    3. Whosoever does believe is not a surprise and coversely whoever does not is likewise not a surprise.

    Did He predestine who would and who wouldn't? No, we are not "marked for salvation" until we actively choose to believe in Him. God is looking for Volunteers who choose to serve, not conscripts who are forced to serve. That is why Jesus said, Whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have ever lasting life. Whosoever believeth is not judged, but whoever believeth not is judged by their unbelief.
     
  12. Sularis

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    You are all assuming a linear single flowing timeline

    It is not
    Yes God knows you will come to Him - but that number changes with every choice made - ie right now - I could go to work and date a 15 year old - and that would chop 300,000 Christians out of total existence,

    (because im 26 and dating someone that young is wrong, not the difference, but her current state of development)

    or I could control my hormones and loneliness, and voila 300K Christians pop into existence.

    See I say God doesnt know what choice I will make, because I dont know, but He knows the results of each choice I could make, and when He so desires acts to encourage the choice that He wants me to take

    That is Free will and Predestination working together - God knowing the results of every single possible choice - and acting to eliminate those choices He does not favour by using outside factors

    Ill admit we dont have free will - as soon as Calvinists admit election isnt the sole route to salvation
     
  13. Hercules

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    I believe

    1. that God established the requirement for salvation ... Faith in Him

    2. the means whereby man is justified before God, The atonement by the blood of Jesus God's only Son;

    so that

    3. Whosoever does believe is not a surprise and coversely whoever does not is likewise not a surprise.

    Did He predestine who would and who wouldn't? No, we are not "marked for salvation" until we actively choose to believe in Him. God is looking for Volunteers who choose to serve, not conscripts who are forced to serve. That is why Jesus said, Whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have ever lasting life. Whosoever believeth is not judged, but whoever believeth not is judged by their unbelief.
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  14. Yelsew

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    Hercules, what is your point in reposting the posts of others, but without comment?
     
  15. ksen

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    Do you have any Scripture to back this up? God's Omniscience is not limited in any way. If it were it would not be "Omni."

    If God does not know what choices you make before you make them then He is not Omniscient and He is not the God of the Bible.

    Again, Scripture please?

    Job 31:4 Doth not he see my ways, and count my all steps?

    Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

    Hebrews 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

    Isaiah 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

    Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

    Why should you admit there is no Free Will? Even Calvinists admit there is Free Will. You are free to choose according to your nature.
     
  16. pinoybaptist

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    I think our friend is still feeling his way on how to quote and post. Let's just be patient.
     
  17. Hercules

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    I think about choice and free will,but then that would say well it's up to me and make the quikening spirit of god of no effect.And after being quikened can any resist his will.I don't think so,I think they will love and desire a righteous life,which is being conformed to the image of his son.The lord walked in all ways he would have is people to walk,sin accepted.The lord quikens and give the spirit thirst for his truth and a hunger for righteousness no man can't come out of depravity with out the love and mercy of a almighty god.If you have turned from such a sinful life,give God the glory for it belongs to him alone.He cast out 10 lepers in luke 17:11 through 19 and only one glorified him for it.Thats mans problem ,man thinks he can become saved with his own will,but man's will is only to sin.It is the lords mercy that we are quikened.Just as he cleansed the ten lepers back then he still cleans now,but man out of ignorance wants to take the glory upon himself that he repented and turned from his sin own his own will,not even considering that God had to give the repentance in the first place,thus making him away to a righteous and fruitful life in christ name.
     
  18. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Jarlaxle;
    Maybe this verse will help;
    Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
    I found this verse in the Archives. I think choice is pretty clear.
    May God Bless You.
    Mike
     
  19. tnelson

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    John 5:40
    "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

    Why?

    John 3:19
    "men loved darkness rather than light,"

    Eph.2:8
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;"

    I think this is very clear.

    by His Grace
    mike
     
  20. Hercules

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