Do we have to worship on Saturday not Sunday?

Well said, overall.

"One man thinks one day is more important than another. Another man thinks every day is the same. Every man must be sure in his own mind."

Does this argument sound familiar? How about this one?

"So don't put up with anyone pressuring you in details of diet, worship services, or holy days."

Anybody wanna' hazard a guess where these 'unbiblical' ideas come from??

Ed

 

Nope, that's not the only option. One could join the Seventh Day Baptists. Or, one coiuld join a church that worships on the Lord's Day. The bottom line is finding a church, joining, participating, learning and serving our Lord.

 

In Rom 14 Paul argues that "one OBSERVES one day ABOVE another while another OBSERVES ALL the days" all the feast days of Lev 23.

(there was NEVER a dispute among OT Jews about keeping 365 days a year as holy and to be OBSERVED).

Many take this Rom 14 text talking about OBSERVING one of the feast days ABOVE the others while another man OBSERVES ALL of the Lev 23 feast days and they try to "Bend the text" to say "ONE man OBSERVES one day ABOVE another while another OBSERVES NO DAY".

But such twisting and bending of Rom 14 is pure eisegesis -- in the extreme.

In Christ,

Bob

 

As D.L Moody pointed out - Christ the Creator's SABBATh was created FOR mankind in Gen 2:3 in EDEN long BEFORE SIN and is a MEMORIAL of Christ the Creator's work JUST as Christ SAID it was!

It is not POINTING FORWARD to the death of God the Son -- rather it is a memorial pointing BACK to the "SEVEN days" of Creation week.

Obviously.

So when you argue that anyone who insists that Christ's OWN day IS to be honored to refer to the Words of God Himself in Exodus 20:8-11??

Or is it to the Word of God in Isaiah 66 about the NEW heavens and NEW earth "From SABBATH to SABBATH shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship"???

Sometimes it is hard to tell which part of the Word of God you are trying to condemn.

Some clarification please.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Little Bobby, your god is obviously your sabbath cult.

 

Little Alcott - D.L. Moody was not a Sabbath keeper. Did you miss the post entirely???

An obviously "empty" post such as the one that you just gave us - that seems to be factless in every regard - is simply the predictable response given by those whose argument has failed. "When reason fails ad hominem prevails" and you seem to be bent on demonstrating that fact --

Why do it?

Why not respond to the points made "with substance" instead?

Is that approach to the Bible really so uncomfortable for you?

I hope not.

Give it a try.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I assume we then agree on one thing, here - namely I too have less than no use for "pure eisegesis -- in the extreme." And in fact, I have little use for any eisegesis at all, meaning reading something into the text that is not there.

Since I do not see one single word here about any feast day, Lev. 23 or otherwise, who is actually the one "twisting and bending" Romans 14 for eisegesis here?

I submit that it is not EdSutton. :thumbsup:

BTW, I deliberately did not cite the passage in my post that you responded to, even though I did quote verbatim Rom. 14:5. That was from the NLV, which is a 'standard' version, and can easily be found online, when one does not posess a paper copy! You know, kind of like "Give someone enough rope...!"

Ed

 

Like all SDA's I know, he fails to prove Sabbath=Saturday. The Bible does not give names to the days of the week - those were added later. Since the calendar has been changed numerous times since the beginning, they can only speculate and hope we accept whatever they say. I don't. The commandment is to rest one day in seven which is what I do. Nevertheless, I meet with my Church on Sunday.

 

Alcott... what you said "sabbath cult"

i find that offensive... sorry.. i do find it quite offensive.

 

Isaiah 1:13 Offer sacrifice no more in vain: incense is an abomination tome. The new moons, and the sabbaths, and other festivals I will not abide, your assemblies are wicked.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus' resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the "first day of the week." Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches "on the first day of the week," which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says "let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath."

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of "another day," which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord's resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.

 

#1. There is NO such commandment as "pick any one day in seven and rest" in Exodus 16 God says "TOMORROW IS the SABBATH". It is a specific day and picking any Monday (weekday two) of your choice was not going to work at Sinai. Obviously.

#2. There is NO DOUBT at all in either science OR in religion as to which day is "week day 1" in the NT era under the Julian calendar. NONE what-so-ever!. HENCE it is not "magic" that all Jews know that Saturday is "The Seventh day" and most Christians know that "being raised on the WEEK DAY ONE" means a resurrection Sunday. Your wild claim is not just the Seventh-day Baptist and Seventh-day Adventists are wrong it is that ALL of science ALL of Christianity AND ALL of Judaism are all wrong.

How in the world can you be living in such a corner?

#3. The ONLY room for "inserting doubt" (which seems to be your intent) is between Sinai and the time of Christ -- claiming that when God said "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" Ex 16 that somehow God "forgot" what day that really was at the time that God the Son came to earth and "entered into the temple on the Sabbath day as was His custom". Only THERE can you possibly find hope for doubt. But EVEN THEN we would still have no excuse for not honoring the day that Christ the Creator kept in the first century AD since ALL -- even pagan science observers can clearly see that no such vague uncertainty exists between our weekly order and the Julian Calendar. NONE whatsoever!

But I suppose if you are simply "looking for any old excuse" that will do as well as any other.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Rom 14 speaks to the REAL OT issue of "OBSERVING" the LIST of days given in Lev 23.

Some here "imagine" ANOTHER issue which is the issue of "OBSERVING 365 days a year" -- which was NEVER an issue with the OT Jews or with NT saints.

Proof:

Second Example given in Romans 14 by Paul.

In this case - one person regards (esteems so as to observe) One day ABOVE another - while another brother regards (esteems so as to Observe) EVERY day.

To see a list of “ALL” the days that were to be observed – turn to Lev 23.

To see a list of THREE out of that set that were actually required of all – see Exodus 23.

Some may observe ALL the Lev 23 annual feast days – or some may have chosen to honor only the 3 mandatory ones listed in Exodus 23. But after the end of all animal sacrifices (Heb 10) with the death of Christ. The shadows ceased to be mandatory. Paul points this out in general in Col 2 and then specifically for Passover in 1Cor 5 “Christ our Passover has been slain” 1Cor 5.

#1. Neither of these is the case of "observing NO day" - or "regarding NO day". (not withstanding the hopes of many today who might wish that such was the case).

#2. There is no OT command to "observe every day".

#3. There is no mention at all of the 7th day Sabbath of Creation week - of the 4th commandment.

#4. BOTH practices (and both Examples) are being defended in Romans 14.

#5 EVEN if you Inject God's own Seventh-day Sabbath INTO the Romans 14 text - that would mean that keeping the 10 commandments IS allowed such that the arguments made AGAINST Sabbath Keeping (saying that it places us under the law) are void. Because if such arguments were true - you could not "defend" such an outcome. You could not argue "For those who want to be back under the law - let them believe it - its ok - they do so for the Lord". That is extreme opposite of the Galations 5 position and you end up with an internally - self-conflicted - text.

#6. The NT issue defined: It is the Annual feast days - the annual Sabbaths. One person observes ONE of them above the other - while another "observes Every day" - all of them.

Paul is arguing that BOTH practices are valid, in fact Paul Himself observed all of them as we find in Acts 21, 23, and 24.

 

Rom 14 -- Part II


And as Paul says of those observing these feast days –

Every commentary found so far – acknowledges that these are the Lev 23 feastival days and that “esteem” is in fact a reference to “OBSERVING” them.

Amplified Bible vs 6
6He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

English Standard Bible – vs 6
6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.[/quote]

Notice there is no "HE who does not observe a day - is not doing so For the Lord".

And the term “Observe” is used to show “in accord with the command of God”. In Matt 28:20 Christ the Creator tells His followers to “Go into all the World and make disciples of ALL nations…teaching them to Observe All that I Commanded you”.

Some will argue that to value and “esteem” one day above another in vs 5 – results in OBSERVING the day in vs 6. But to Value and Esteem ALL days (of the Lev 23 list) results in OBSERVING NONE!


Vs 5 "One esteems one day ABOVE another while another esteems ALL" vs 6 "SO The one who OBSERVES the day OBSERVES it for the Lord"!!

We can not split these verses into separate topics. It is all one point.

As we see in vs 5 they place value on (esteems) either ONE day or on ALL days in the Lev 23 list of days to be Observed. The one who places value only on ONE day is NOT observing ALL the days in the list!!

There is no such thing as a limited choice such that "One can only OBSERVE ONE of the Lev 23 days or NONE of them" as many suggest. They insert a false either-or fallacy to try to bend the text to their usages.

They are twisting the SAME word in Vs 5 from "VALUE and ESTEEM" in the case of ONE day -- to "NOT value and NOT ESTEEM" in the case of ALL days in the Lev 23 list. So that valuing/esteeming ONE results in OBSERVING one - but value and esteem for ALL days in the Lev 23 list results in observe none!!!

That form of logic twisting inserted INTO the text has to be done from previous bias - it is not IN the text!


The issue in vs 5 and 6 is WHICH of the Lev 23 feast days you choose to observe,, either ALL or some above others. The ‘esteem NONE” option is not there!

So Which practice is "weak" in this second example

In this case NO assignment is made regarding Weak or Strong faith in terms of "days". BUT if we follow the same rule as diet above - then we might assume that in the same way the FIRST case is the STRONG faith case and the Second case is the WEAK. In that case the one who Observs ONE feast day above the others is the one STRONG in faith - and the one who observes ALL the feast days is the one weak in faith.

 

What lovely words you place into my mouth.

I am not condemning any part of God's Word nor am I arguing for a day which you call Christ's day. I merely point out that Sabboth means rest and true rest can only be found in Christ. I would also argue that we honor the Sabbath when we spend time in the Word regardless of day or time. In addition, that anybody who insists on a specific day is no better than the hypocritical pharisees Christ condemned during his ministry.

 

Chemnitz:
"anybody who insists on a specific day is no better than the hypocritical pharisees Christ condemned during his ministry."

GE:
Look who's talking! Point a finger, how many point at one self! Let's leave the judging to God and Christ.

Anybody who insists on a specific day --- and if it is God? And indeed Jesus Christ in Person?

Jesus insisted to rise from the dead on the Sabbath Day --- that is obvious for any with eyes given to see and ears given to hear since of old! He insisted because he would answer the Father's call of sanctification of the Seventh Day; He would fulfill the Father's Blessing of the Sabbath Day; Would provide the Divivne Rest of the Seventh Day; fulfill the Almighty Finishing of the Seventh Day. He did it all His life upon this earth among men; He accomplished and finished it in the entering into His Own Rest as God ... Then, says the Word, "remains valid for keeping the Sabbath Day for the People of God" - the Christians of today. "Let no one THEREFORE (inferring Jesus' resurrection) condemn you with regard to your Sabbaths' Feasting".
That is why. The Jews and the SDA's cling to the Law; but the Christian has Christ for keeping the Sabbath Day -- it is 'Church' in the last analysis : Church of Christ: Congregation; Commuity and Communion - God provided her with HIS Holy Day for worship of Him.
I, have NO other reason; don't WANT any more.

 

No. The "Sabattarians" are all wrong, with the exception of Israel of course. Here is proof.

Ex 31:12
¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Ex 31:13
Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:14
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 31:16
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Ex 31:17
It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

But the New Testament church is called unto a much higher calling.

1Co 1:22
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The conclusion is simple my friends. If you would align yourself with the Judaizers of The Epistle to the Galatians, then by all means keep the Jewish Sabbath but if you would have liberty then cling to Christ.

And by the way; ask your Sabattarian friends if they observe the Sabbath as given or do they observe with the exceptions as they have changed it.
Ex 35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
Ex 35:3
Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Sabbath keepers??? I think NOT! Or do they REALLY stone to death those who have heat or electricity in their homes??? Do they cook a meal? Stone them! Do they wash up? Stone them! Do they DRIVE TO CHURCH ? STONE THEM WITH GREAT BIG ROCKS!!!

Get the point my friends? If you will keep the Sabbath holy "according to Scripture" then do it ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE AND JOIN A SYNAGOGUE AND CONVERT TO JUDAISM. Or quit your Judaizing. The Sabbath is for Israel, not the Church.

 

wow... why do people keep going back to this argument?
you know - as well as i do - as well as anybody else - unless you are that ignorant - that none of what you said there is scriptural in anyway.

heat and electricity was brough upon by the oral torah and the talmud.
ok - so cooking a meal i think is in the OT - but what's so hard in cooking all the food before? you that lazy?
drive to church... wow. im surprised you used that one... i have no words for this.

the new covenant spoken about in Jeremiah 31 is it... is for the house of Israel and house of Judah

or are you one of those heretics that believe the church is Israel?

 

God said --

]Ex 16
23 then he said to them, ""This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is the Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the LORD[/b]. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.''
24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
25 Moses said, ""Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
26 "" Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.''
27 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.

But Chemnitz said --
"anybody who insists on a specific day is no better than the hypocritical pharisees"

God said --
Isaiah 58
13 ""If because of the Sabbath, you turn your foot From doing your own pleasure on My holy day, And [b]call the Sabbath a delight, The Holy Day of the LORD honorable, And honor it, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure And speaking your own word,
14 Then you will take delight in the LORD, And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.''

But Chemnitz said --
"anybody who insists on a specific day is no better than the hypocritical pharisees"

 

Where should I show up for my stoning?


Doug Batchelor believes unless you practice the keeping ot the Sabbath Day you will not see heaven.

 

So Bob which was the seventh day? For all we know the seventh day was Tuesday. The Sabbath of the old testament is a foreshadowing of the rest found in Christ and the return of Christ when he will make all things new. Outside of seventh day there is no reference to a specific day and seventh day isn't all that specific. You are the one insisting that it is a specific day of the week. Not to mention by the time you get to the book of Acts the only people observing a specific Sabbath Day are the Jews. In addition, the Exodus passage you mention is specific towards the gathering of manna, it does not mandate a particular day of the week.

I guess the big difference between us is that you are looking for more rules to follow rather than enjoying the freedom and sabbath rest we have been given in Christ. You can keep on attempting to honor the Sabbath through the traditions of men and I will seek the true rest offered in Christ.