Do we need to have the Holy Ghost to be saved?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by ONENESS, Nov 21, 2002.

  1. ONENESS

    ONENESS
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    Ok let me say from the onset that this is not a topic on tongues. This is just to discuss wether or not we need the Holy Ghost to be saved.

    DHK mentioned on a diffrent topic that The Book of Romans does not mention that we need the Holy Ghost to go to heaven. Does it? Does it have to mention it at all?

    We find in John 3:1-8 Jesus had a conversation with Nickodemus. Jesus told him that he had to be born again. Nick did not understand so Jesus had a little talk with him and said that you have got to be born of the Water and the SPIRIT to enter into the Kingdom of God. Jesus stressed it so much that he even said it a third time that you must be born again.

    Now from a monotheistic view we believe that there is absolute One God who is not seperated into person. We believe that The Spirit inside the Son is Father. We do not believe that the Father and the Holy Spirit are two seperate Spirits. We believe that they are all the same being. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all manifestations that God revealed himself to humanity.

    We know that the Holy Ghost is the Father of The baby Jesus. Luke 1:35 lets us know that The Holy Ghost is the one that caused the conception.

    We know that Jesus returned to us as another comforter. (the Holy Ghost) We know that Jesus said "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you. John 14 does a wonderful job at decribeing the Oneness of God.

    Now I said all that to say this. Romans 8:9 says

    But ye are not in the Flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS NONE OF HIS.

    First Paul causes it the Spirit of God then He Calls it the Spirit of Christ.

    It then goes on to say in verse 11 that "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the Dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies, by the Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    Romans is definatly letting us know that we must have the Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, or Spirit of God (they are all the same) to be his.

    So with that I can keep on going. Who raised up Jesus from the Dead? Was it the Father, was it the Son or was it the Holy Ghost. The bible lets us know in John 2:19 Jesus said that [/b]HE[/b] would raise HIMSELF from the dead. Also see Mat 26:61.

    So you tell me DHK... Do we need the Spirit of God in order to be saved?

    God Bless

    [ November 21, 2002, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
     
  2. DHK

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    Romans 8:10-11
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
    The Scripture is plain on this teaching. Of course one needs the Holy Spirit to go to Heaven. But it is also plain that the Holy Spirit does not come through either baptism or speaking in tongues. It comes when one confess Christ as Lord and believes that God has raised Christ from the dead. That is when one is saved, and that is when Christ, by the power of His Holy Spirit, comes and indwells the believer.

    Water in John 3:5 in no way refers to baptism; it refers to the Word of God. We are born again through the Word of God. Compare Scripture with Scripture. Remember the Word of God does not contradict itself.

    1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    --Being born again of what?? Of the Word of God.
    Of the Word of God, and of the Spirit of God. That leaves only one interpretation for water--the Word of God.
    DHK
     
  3. ONENESS

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    Romans 8:10-11
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
    The Scripture is plain on this teaching. Of course one needs the Holy Spirit to go to Heaven. But it is also plain that the Holy Spirit does not come through either baptism or speaking in tongues. It comes when one confess Christ as Lord and believes that God has raised Christ from the dead. That is when one is saved, and that is when Christ, by the power of His Holy Spirit, comes and indwells the believer.

    Water in John 3:5 in no way refers to baptism; it refers to the Word of God. We are born again through the Word of God. Compare Scripture with Scripture. Remember the Word of God does not contradict itself.

    1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    --Being born again of what?? Of the Word of God.
    Of the Word of God, and of the Spirit of God. That leaves only one interpretation for water--the Word of God.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]DHK, The reason for this was not to determine when and how we got it. My reason was to see if people really beleive that someone must have the Holy Ghost to go to heaven.

    If you say that we are born by the word of God that covers the Spirit as well. I dont really want to argue but it simple to see that being born of the Water is Water baptisim. See the book of Acts when people were experiencing the New Birth for the First time.
     
  4. donnA

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    You want to know what I believe?
    Ok, I believe what the bible teaches us, God is one revealed in three, that when a person is sved the Holy Spirit indwells them at the monent of salvation, therefore, only those saved are going to heaven, and those saved also have the Holy SPirit indwelling them, therefore only those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit/ saved are going to heaven. Seems clear enough when you read the bible.
     
  5. Don

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    DHK, that's an interesting analysis that I knew, but had never put into words or that particular terminology before. And it's something I need to ponder a while more.

    "born of water" = "living water" I think is what you're saying.

    Oneness, a question: What would you tell DHK if all he ever told you was "refer to Romans"?

    [ November 21, 2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Don ]
     
  6. DHK

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  7. Mike McK

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    What you mean "we", white man?

    I don't know anyone here or in all of orthodoxy whobelieves this.

    Again, "we" don't know any such thing.

    The Bible makes it abundantly clear that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two distinctly different beings.

    v2 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

    v6 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

    v7 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father while, at the same time, establishing His authority to speak on the Father's behalf.

    v.10-11 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father while, at the same time establishing His authority to speak on the Father's behalf.

    v.12 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

    v.13 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

    v.16 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from both the Father and the Holy Spirit while at the same time distinguishes the Father from the Holy Spirit

    v.17 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Holy Spirit

    v.20 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

    v.21 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

    v.23 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father (note His use of the word, "We")

    v.24 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

    v.26 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from both the Father and the Holy Spirit

    v.28 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

    v.31 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

    Either you or Jesus is really confused. :rolleyes:

    It looks like an account of the wedding feast at Cana to me.

    And when the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine and knew not whence it was (but the servsants which drew the water knew), the governor of the feast called the bridegroom

    So much for John 2:9.

    ...and?
     
  8. ONENESS

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    What you mean "we", white man?

    I don't know anyone here or in all of orthodoxy whobelieves this.

    Again, "we" don't know any such thing.

    The Bible makes it abundantly clear that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two distinctly different beings.

    v2 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

    v6 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

    v7 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father while, at the same time, establishing His authority to speak on the Father's behalf.

    v.10-11 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father while, at the same time establishing His authority to speak on the Father's behalf.

    v.12 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

    v.13 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father.

    v.16 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from both the Father and the Holy Spirit while at the same time distinguishes the Father from the Holy Spirit

    v.17 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Holy Spirit

    v.20 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

    v.21 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

    v.23 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father (note His use of the word, "We")

    v.24 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

    v.26 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from both the Father and the Holy Spirit

    v.28 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

    v.31 - Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father

    Either you or Jesus is really confused. :rolleyes:

    It looks like an account of the wedding feast at Cana to me.

    And when the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine and knew not whence it was (but the servsants which drew the water knew), the governor of the feast called the bridegroom

    So much for John 2:9.

    ...and?[/b]</font>[/QUOTE]If you want to have a nice little discussion on the Oneness of God I would be happy to meet you over at the Thread "Oneness Vs. The Trinity. But if all you want to do is argue dont worry with it.

    God bless.
     
  9. ONENESS

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    I dont understand what you are saying...Are you saying what would I say if DHK told me to refer to Romans for salvation if I was not saved, or somthing else?
     
  10. jasonW*

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    When did you stop beating your wife? This is a loaded question for a couple of reasons:

    1. Are you saved because you have the spirit of God or do you have the spirit of God because you are saved?

    The question "Do we need to have the holy ghost to be saved?" does not address sequence, rather, only presense.

    Am I saved because of God?
    Am I saved because I have the holy spirit?
    Am I saved because I have faith in Christ and I receive the Holy Spirit at my conversion?

    Or, are you trying to leave it ambigious and obscure?

    2. This question is also phrased to imply that someone proposed the idea that one could be saved without God, or the spirit of God. I am not sure this is the case.

    In short, the wording of the question is poor and can lead to much run around. Would you mind rewording it?

    In Christ,
    jason
     
  11. Mike McK

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    Then why did you bring it up?

    Is it really reasonable to bring up such a controversial topic in a place where it is considered a false doctrine, say "we" believe it and then not expect someone to question you on it?

    Once you introduce it, as you have here, it is grounds for discussion.
     
  12. jasonW*

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    He is saying that it is impolite to just say "Look at Acts" for a specific answer. What if you asked me how to combine H2 and O to make water and I said "look at Chemistry" and expected that to solve the problem.

    jason
     
  13. Don

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    Or the reverse, Jason: I ask you to look at chemistry, and you look at H2.

    [​IMG]

    I looked at 1 Peter 3 for the longest time, because I couldn't get past the thought that it looked like it was saying that water saved Noah, and thus, baptism saves us.

    But then I found Hebrews 11:7, which says that Noah and his sons were saved by the ark, and mentions nothing about baptism. Wham! I was hit by a conundrum: Either Hebrews 11 contradicted 1 Peter 3, or there was something I was missing. And then I saw the phrase "wherein eight souls were saved" in 1 Peter 3, and a whole new understanding of baptism popped out at me.

    By looking at ALL of scripture, and not just certain sections, we find that the apostles wrote many things about many subjects, and ALL of them together create the doctrine that we profess today.

    [ November 21, 2002, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Don ]
     
  14. ONENESS

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    Then why did you bring it up?

    Is it really reasonable to bring up such a controversial topic in a place where it is considered a false doctrine, say "we" believe it and then not expect someone to question you on it?

    Once you introduce it, as you have here, it is grounds for discussion.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I brought that up to point out that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ is the Same Spirit. ANd then went on to show that we must have that one spirit to be considered his.

    Yes it is open for discussion. But the way you want to discuss it is not grounds for this discussion here. So if you please feel free to post on "Oneness VS. Trintiy Debate. It would fit in well there.

    God bless

    [ November 21, 2002, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
     
  15. ONENESS

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    When did you stop beating your wife? This is a loaded question for a couple of reasons:

    1. Are you saved because you have the spirit of God or do you have the spirit of God because you are saved?

    The question "Do we need to have the holy ghost to be saved?" does not address sequence, rather, only presense.

    Am I saved because of God?
    Am I saved because I have the holy spirit?
    Am I saved because I have faith in Christ and I receive the Holy Spirit at my conversion?

    Or, are you trying to leave it ambigious and obscure?

    2. This question is also phrased to imply that someone proposed the idea that one could be saved without God, or the spirit of God. I am not sure this is the case.

    In short, the wording of the question is poor and can lead to much run around. Would you mind rewording it?

    In Christ,
    jason
    </font>[/QUOTE]Ok Jason sorry for the cofussion. Maybe I should have said. Can we have salvation without the Spirit of God living inside of us?

    That help?
     
  16. MEE

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    What you mean "we", white man?

    **Smoke_Eater, I believe Oneness is talking about "Monotheism." Not one that believes in a "Trinity."

    Again, "we" don't know any such thing.

    **Ummm.....maybe you don't know Smoke_Eater. ;)

    It looks like an account of the wedding feast at Cana to me.

    And when the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine and knew not whence it was (but the servsants which drew the water knew), the governor of the feast called the bridegroom

    So much for John 2:9.

    **Smoke_Eater, Oneness is referring to John 2:19. Go back and read it agian. He said John 2:19, not 2:9!

    ...and?[/b]</font>[/QUOTE]Matt. 26:61 goes along with John 2:19. [​IMG]

    MEE
     
  17. ONENESS

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    HEY MEE [​IMG] How are you....

    SmokeEater, I just replied to you post. Just visit the Topic "Oneness Vs. The Trinity.

    MEE, Smoke Eater had the wrong scripture. He was looking at John 2:9

    But we can forgive him this time. [​IMG]

    God bless
     
  18. DHK

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    So, without referring to John or Acts, using the Book of Romans only can you answer your own question?

    Secondly, can you demonstrate how to have salvation through the book of Romans only.
    DHK

    [ November 21, 2002, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
     
  19. ONENESS

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    So, without referring to John or Acts, using the Book of Romans only can you answer your own question?

    Secondly, can you demonstrate how to have salvation through the book of Romans only.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yes I could answer my question using the book of Romans.

    My Question was "Can we have salvation without the Spirit of God living inside of us"?

    My Answer is "NO". Romans 8:9-11 lets us know that.

    Romans 8:9-11
    But ye are not in the flesh but inthe Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his.
    And if Christ be in you the body is dead b/c of sin. But the Spirit is life because of righteousness
    But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the Dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall aslo quicken you mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    THis is kind of hard for me to answer. It is like saying that the book of Romans is all that we need. But you and I know both know that we need all of Scripture to explain Scripture.

    THe Book of Romans was not written to sinners telling them how to be saved. It was written to people in Rome b/c they started going back to the law. The first chapter of Romans should tell you this.

    But none the less we still can find the new birth in the book of Romans. The bible tells us in the Gospels that broad is the way that leadeth to destruction and many there be which go in there at. B/c strait is the gate and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be thatFIND IT.(mat 7:13)

    I said that to say this, although we have the entire bible few there be that find it. So what I am saying is this, Sometimes we need people to show us. I know I did. I could not find it on my on.

    First of All we need to know who Jesus is and what he did for us.

    Romans 5:6-8 tells us that For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ Died for the ungodly for scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    What must I do to be saved? The First thing I can do and have to do is believe in Jesus Christ that he died for my sins. If I cant believe that I cant be saved . We must believe in Jesus but we do not stop there.

    Next thing we need to do is Repent. And let me say from the out set that Repentance is much more than Saying Im sorry. Repentance is saying your sorry and doing a 180 degree turn from it.

    Keep in mind that we are to obey the Gospel. II Thes 1:8. The Gospel is the Death, Burial and Ressurrection.

    Christ died a physical Death. We need to die Spiritually

    Romans 6:1-2
    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God Forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therin?

    How do we die? We die through repentance. Paul said "I die daily.

    Christ was buried. We also need to be buried.

    Romans 6:3-4
    Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death.?
    Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: That like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the Glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of Life.

    We are buried with him at baptism.

    Romans 8:9-11
    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his.
    And if Christ be in you, the body is dead b/c of sin but the Spirit is life b/c of righteousness
    But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    We must also have The Spirit of God living in us. When we receive the Holy Ghost we walk in the newness of life. But not only that.

    Romans 6:5 says
    For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

    Also if we want to be ressurected just like him what does Romans 8:11 tell us. It lets us know that the same spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall aslo quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    So in other words we will be raised by the Holy Ghost inside of us.

    So its easy to see in the Book of Romans that we still need to believe and have faith, and that we need to repent, be baptized and have the Holy Ghost in our lives.

    God bless
     
  20. Lorelei

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    To which DHK replied quoting Romans and saying



    It appears to me that DHK did say that Romans teaches that we must have the Spirit to be saved.

    ~Lorelei
     

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