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Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Nov 25, 2013.
before the fall?
deleted new thread!
n Arminian Foreknowledge, If god sees it, isn;t it already been determined?
Will be a new thread!
No, we have OUR OWN free will.
Lev 1:3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
You see, when God said that when ANY MAN among the Jews were to bring an offering to him, they were to bring it of THEIR OWN free will. They were not instructed to use Adam or Eve's or any other person's free will.
I am not sure Adam and Eve would have allowed someone to borrow their free will anyway, folks are funny about keeping their own free will.
Arminian foreknowledge? I personally do not know any Arminians with foreknowledge.
He would be handy at the race track though. :thumbs:
LOL! Are you that desperate to suggest voluntary offerings support your doctrinal theory of "free-will."? You need something far more substantial than that.
No, I am not desperate, but YES, I am outright saying these offerings refute Total Inability. These offerings were a form of worship. Any man among the Jews could make them, and God himself said he would accept these offerings as an atonement for them.
That is salvation dude.
Lev 1:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
This deals directly with salvation and the forgiveness of sins, and God showed any man among the Jews could give an offering of his own free will, and that if he did so, God would accept his offering to make atonement for him.
This scripture utterly refutes total inability!
But don't take my word for it, look it up in the scriptures and read it yourself.
What difference to mankind nature happened as a result of the fall?
Were OT believers able to live right enough by their own will to merit approval of God?
can natural man receives things that are spiritual in a saving way, can they in their natural state hear and believe WITHOUT the aiding of the Spirit?
sinners can and do know God in same fashion as satan , but NOT in a saving way, as flesh cannot produce spiritual life in and by itself!
Boy, you sure ask a lot of questions.
To answer your first question, what fall? Where do the scriptures say man fell? You show me that and I'll read it, then I'll be able to answer your question.
Your second question, were OT believers able to live right by their own will to merit approval with God? Sure, Enoch walked with God, he was a very good man. The scriptures say Noah was perfect in his generations. Job was a very good man.
Third question, can natural men hear the spiritual and be saved without the aid of the Holy Spirit? Of course not, no man is born knowing of the true God or Jesus Christ. God must reveal himself to man before man can believe on him. God did this by inspiring holy men with his Holy Spirit to write down God's words that enabled men to trust in God. So, the answer is no, no man can be saved without the aid of the Holy Spirit.
Your fourth question is not a question, but a statement. You have already given your opinion.
No, because they didn't have to pay a lawyer to file theirs.
So those in the OT were made perfect before God by how they kept His law?
And since we seem to agree no man can call jesus Lord save by the Spirit, how does 'free will" factor into that again?
I don't know what rendition of the Scriptures you are using, but Lev. 1 states:
2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When any man of you brings an offering to the Lord, you shall bring your offering of animals from the herd or the flock. 3 If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer it, a male without defect; he shall offer it at the doorway of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the Lord. 4 He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, that it may be accepted for him to make atonement on his behalf.
It says nothing of it being "of his own voluntary will."
Rather, the Hebrew wording speaks of it as "Young literal translation" - "at his pleasure."
Meaning at his timing, or not out of obligation it is brought to Jehovah.
The KJV/NKJV use "will" rather than "pleasure" - and some (as you seem to do) latch onto the verse and misinterpret the actual statement.
The King James Bible doesn't merely say "will" it says "his own voluntary will". That is about a perfect definition of free will as you can get.
I don't doubt for a second that other versions have altered this scripture.
But then folks will say no major doctrines are affected by the MVs. :laugh:
Winman, you miss the place of OT and NT atonement if you think it means the "forgiveness of sins."
It means "reconciliation" and "covering."
The only "forgiveness of sins" is through the shed blood of Christ. It is a word translated "propitiation" in the NT and it was a one time sacrifice.
All uses of the word atonement throughout Scriptures (OT and NT) as applied to the sacrifices of the OT is that of reconciliation and were a "covering" (a temporary reconciliation) of the sin until the cross of Christ.
Salvation from the beginning of humankind to the last person saved has been, is and will always be through the shed blood of Christ (as portrayed through the sacrifices and offerings) who paid for all sin of all humankind, AND being reconciled to God.
God didn't save anyone any differently in the OT than He does in our day.
What?? I think you need to study, when God said this offering would be accepted as an atonement for the person making the offering, his sins were forgiven. It was a figure of Christ to come.
Again, you need to study. This sacrifice was to atone for one's sins. It was confessing your sins on the head of the sacrifice, and then the sacrifice was killed as your substitute.
This was absolutely an OT figure of Christ to come.
Note that ANY MAN could make this offering of his OWN VOLUTARY WILL, and God said he would ACCEPT it as ATONEMENT for the man.
This scripture destroys Total Inability.
I am not saying the NKJV or the KJV have it wrong, I am saying that they used a word that is unfortunately not appropriate to the meaning that some attach.
Here is Young's Literal translation: Lev 1:1 And Jehovah calleth unto Moses, and speaketh unto him out of the tent of meeting, saying,
Lev 1:2 `Speak unto the sons of Israel, and thou hast said unto them, Any man of you when he doth bring near an offering to Jehovah, out of the cattle -- out of the herd, or out of the flock -- ye do bring near your offering.
Lev 1:3 `If his offering `is' a burnt-offering out of the herd -- a male, a perfect one, he doth bring near, unto the opening of the tent of meeting he doth bring it near, at his pleasure, before Jehovah;
Lev 1:4 and he hath laid his hand on the head of the burnt-offering, and it hath been accepted for him to make atonement for him;
Again, the Hebrew doesn't meet the level of "free will" as you desire to engage it, but does raise to the level of one taking delight or pleasure in the voluntary offering given without obligation.
Similar to that the believer has in giving in this day. From the heart, in gratitude, and with pleasurable delight.
It can also have the element of acceptance or being or showing acceptance.
For example, a person will present at a business meeting, and are pleased that at the acceptance of the audience of the presentation.
Here is another verse in which the Hebrew word is used (the underlined part is the Hebrew word): Ex 28:38 And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.
You will continue to believe what you desire, no matter how often or to what measure you are shown differently.
Here is a simple word study.
When and How is the word "propitiation" used in the NT? It isn't part of the OT.
When and How is the word "atonement" used in both the OT and NT?
When you have accomplished that study, you will perhaps understand that what I have posted.
You will disagree with anyone who posts the Scriptural truth on this topic - as you have historically shown.
I could say the same of you. And I showed you where a noted theologian (Adam Clarke) said this offering was made so a man's sins were forgiven.
It is YOU that will not listen, not me.
Do We still have same free will as Adam/Eve had?
Correct! Different person. Long time ago.
We have all the same human attributes and freedoms that Adam was divinely designed with. God did not "recreate" man after the fall and remove his abilities of sense, intellect, reason, volition, etc. Man actually gained an attribute by his own free will choice and that how man's troubles began...
P.S. thank God that in His wisdom and loving grace for His creatures He planned for and provided the way for redemption for our certain failure to keep from sinning. He told us to NOW repent and take those same attributes that we have and put forth "our" hand to take from the tree of life:
(Gen 3:22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
I can't emphasize strongly enough that all men should freely obey this command and humbly bow our own knees to His Lordship over us by putting forth his hand and do so without complaints and excuses that he has no ability of his own to do so.
I've presented a more detailed argument here.
In my Arminian POV - Adam and Eve had free will, sinless natures, and the ability to choose to persevere in faithfulness or rebel against God.
They chose rebellion - they were not pre-programmed to do it.
But once they fell their natures became corrupt and the same "bent toward evil" that they experienced in their human nature - they passed on to their children.
However God stepped in and in Gen 3 put supernatural "emnity" between fallen mankind and Satan's kingdom of rebellion. More than that - in John 12:32 "Christ draws ALL unto him" -- this enables the free will of even the lost - to choose the Gospel.
In fact even Calvinists will admit that the supernatural drawing of God enables the choice to choose the Gospel that depravity disables.
"we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5.
"I STAND at the door and KNOCK if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3.