Do We STILL Need To Crucify The Flesh, or was It Done In Cross Already?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, May 20, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

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    When Jesus died as payment/atonement for Sin...

    Where we "crucufied" with him in a sense?

    Did our old flesh/sin nature get nailed to the Cross with Him?

    So Christians have just new nature now?

    OR

    We still have dual natures still, and HAVE to still make sure we "kill off" old man nature on a daily basis?
     
  2. jbh28

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    don't have time to respond right now in much detail, but read Colossians 3 where Paul talks about putting off the old man.
     
  3. DHK

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    Absolutely, one needs to crucify the flesh every day.
    Paul said in 1Cor.15:31 "I die daily."
    In Gal.2:20
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)

    Every day the flesh must be crucified. I must learn to deny myself; say no to my fleshly desires, and yes to the desires of the Holy Spirit.

    Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:11)

    O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    25 So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:24-25)
    --The battle is in the mind. I must constantly yield my mind to Christ. The flesh must be crucified.

    The cross is a symbol of execution, of death. Christ was crucified on a cross, as was two thieves, one on each side. It was the common mode of putting criminals to death. As Christ was put to death, I must put my flesh to death, and live for Christ, yielding my desires all to him.

    If Christians were honest with themselves they would not wear a cross as an ornament around their necks today; they would wear instead an ornament of the electric chair, the common mode of execution in our day and age. Death by crucifixion is not the common mode of execution today. That is what the cross symbolizes.

    And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. (Luke 9:23)
    --What are the requirements of discipleship? Of following Jesus?
    1. Deny yourself. Deny yourself of your desires, and follow Christ instead.
    2. Take up your cross daily. The same truth that Paul expresses in 1Cor.15:31. Every day you put your fleshly desires to death, and submit to the desires of Christ and him alone.
    3. Then you can follow Christ and be his disciple.

    Crucifying the flesh is an absolute necessity to discipleship.
     
  4. Romans7man

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    You have just turned the work Christ did on the cross for us into our work, therefore turning salvation into a works salvation.

    When Paul said, "I die daily" he was not talking about putting the flesh to death, he was talking about the fact that getting the gospel out was taking a toll on his physical body. Look at everything Paul was going through to get the gospel out and then ask yourself how you would look and feel if that were you. My grandfather died at 36, but he looked 20years older due to all the hard work he did in those 36 years. Hard work, bad conditions and little sleep takes a toll on the body.

    The word of God is crystal clear in that our old man, our flesh IS crucified, past tense. It's not up to us to crucify the flesh, but believe it has already been done and walk in that truth. For we walk by faith not by sight!

    When Christ said to take up your cross daily, he was not referring to dieing to self, or crucifying the flesh, but be prepared to die. Christ knew those that were going to truly follow him were going to have to make the hard choice to save their life or lose it when faced with execution.
    Many of our brothers and sisters around the world TODAY take up their cross when they are told you can live if you will come back to Islam, Hinduism, Communism and a number of other isms and reject Christ. They take up their cross when they say no to those things and yes to Christ in the face of death!
    The idea of dieing daily or crucifying the flesh, etc comes from those that sit around and think the hardest thing they have to do is get up on a cold wet day and drive to church and sit somewhere else because someone took the pew seat they always sit in.
     
  5. Herald

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    Positionally our old self has been crucified with Christ; our sins are forgiven. However, in this life we live in the flesh there is still the matter of sanctification.

    Galatians 2:20 20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."
     
    #5 Herald, Nov 8, 2011
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  6. freeatlast

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    We do not have two natures. The bible NEVER teaches that. That is a false teaching that has crept into the church by satan and man to excuse those who are not saved and practice sin.
    Those who are saved have crucified the flesh.

    Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

    Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    That is why no child of God, a true believer, practices sin.
    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
     
    #6 freeatlast, Nov 8, 2011
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  7. Romans7man

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    I am in agreement here.
     
  8. Robert Snow

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    It could not have been put an better.

    Anyone who thinks that we don't still have the old nature that tempts us to sin is following the yellow brick road and is on their way to Oz.
     
  9. beameup

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    This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
    And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
    If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    Galatians 5:16, 24, 25

    Learn how to walk in the Spirit and you won't have a problem.
    If you don't understand "Walk in the Spirit", then you have a problem.
    If you don't understand the "Old Man" and the "New Man", then you have a problem.
    If you don't understand the difference between being Ego-directed (Self-directed) and Spirit-directed, then you have a problem.
     
  10. freeatlast

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    Robert being tempted has nothing to do with an nature old or new. No one who is saved has an old nature. That is a fabrication of men to justify why they sin, not God.
    2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    WE do not have an old nature!
     
    #10 freeatlast, Nov 8, 2011
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  11. Robert Snow

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    Then if you believe this you will live sinless. As for me, I struggle with sin every day.
     
  12. freeatlast

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    Your struggle is not because of an old nature. No one or nothing can over come a nature. That is why Peter says this.
    2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    The new birth makes us into a new creation. The battle we have is because we are still in the flesh. Even Jesus was tempted and He did not have any old (sin) nature..

    The reason the church wants to hold to the false teaching of an old sin nature is so they have an excuse for their sins and they do not have to take full responsibility. No, no one who holds to an old sin nature accepts full responsibility for their sin. No One!
     
    #12 freeatlast, Nov 8, 2011
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  13. Herald

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    Robert, theologically speaking we only have one nature as Christians; the new nature.

    2 Corinthians 5:17 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

    It is impossible for light and darkness to co-exist spiritually within a believer.

    1 John 1:5-7 5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

    Some confuse abiding sin with the old sin nature. Our minds have been trained by sin. While our spirit is free from the penalty and bondage of sin our mind does not forget the pleasures of sin. This is why Paul wrote what he did in Romans 12:

    Romans 12:1-2 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. (emphasis mine)

    Through worship, fellowship, prayer, confession/repentance, study etc. our mind is renewed constantly.
     
  14. Robert Snow

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    Say what you want, I ain't buying it!

    You act like this is my first month in church. I was saved in 1969. I have sat under some wonderful men of God and attended Tennessee Temple University for a short time. This doctrine I believe is both what I have been taught and have studied and experienced throughout the past 40 years. It will take much more that a few postings from people I don't even know to change my mind. I appreciate the input, but I'm really not here to develop a new belief system, as though I find fault with mine. The church I was saved at was an IFB church. We were KJVO, and listened to men like Lester Roloff, John R. Rice, and Oliver B. Green, to name only a few. Although it wasn't perfect and somethings have changed over the years (I am no longer KJVO), I still hold to much of these teachings.
     
  15. Iconoclast

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    Most excellent verse...i recently heard a pastor comment on this vs. that it says believers have been ........co-crucified with Christ.....

    YLt says it this way;
     
  16. convicted1

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    I agree with you, Brother Robert, about us having two natures. These two natures are the fleshly kind(our flesh still desires to sin because it has the stain of sin still on it), whereas the Spiritual nature has been delivered from the curse of sin(curse of the Law), and is a new creature in Christ.

    Galatians 5:16-26
    16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

    17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

    18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

    25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

    26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.


    Ephesians 4:22/24
    22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

    23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true



    Colossians 3:5-11
    5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

    6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

    7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

    8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

    9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

    10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

    11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.



    The "old man" here in these two passages, is the soul pre-salvation. It was corrupted by sinning against God. However, the "new man" is the soul post-salvation. It has been sanctified, justified, and washed in the blood of the Lamb. It is a new creature with a new nature, having passed from death unto life. The flesh has yet to obtain this. Only when Christ returns, will the flesh get the "new man" to go along with the "new man" of the soul.
     
  17. Herald

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    Robert, is there a reason you were so visceral in your reaction? I wasn't attacking you; I simply shared my opinion.
     
  18. freeatlast

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    Robert, so are you saying your résumé and your experience trumps the word of God?
     
  19. DHK

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    No we have two. Paul describes the old nature that we have very well in Romans 7 as he tells of the struggle that he has with it every day. He describes the individuals of the Corinthian church as carnal--carnal Christians in 1Cor.3:1-5. He tells us there are two kinds of works in Gal.5: the works of the flesh and the works of the Spirit. We can give into either: the flesh or the Spirit. Face it! Your works are not always the Fruit of the Spirit, are they?
    How many times has this verse been quoted on this thread now as a proof text, and yet without knowledge of what the verse means? It is not speaking of your old sin nature that has passed away. It is not speaking of anything like that at all. To find out its meaning you must read the context and get the meaning from the context:

    Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. (2 Corinthians 5:16)
    --What is Paul speaking about? He is speaking to a church that has both Jew and Gentile; rich and poor; and wide variety of people. To use a modern day example you may have a banker and a janitor in your church. Perhaps you also may have someone saved who was recently released out of prison. Perhaps the banker would be prone to look down on the other two people, and the former prisoner might think that the banker would never want anything to do with him.

    We have known Christ after the flesh. (i.e. Paul, when he saw Christ)
    But from now on we know him no more more. He is not here.

    Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)

    Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature. That is he is saved. He has started a new life.
    Old things are passed away. What are the old things. The old things that Paul is emphasizing are the things that were differentiating and causing schisms in the church--the banker, janitor, former prisoner, etc. We don't consider people's pasts any longer. We are one in Christ. The banker needs to go to the ex-con and treat him as a brother in Christ and vice-versa. There are no more barriers. The Jew can now have fellowship with the Gentile. Old things (barriers) are passed away. All things are become new (relationships). Our relationships one with another have become a new type of relationship.
    This is the meaning of the verse. It needs to be read and understood in its context--but rarely is.
    This is speaking of our fellowship with one another, and our fellowship with God. It has nothing to do with salvation. It has nothing to do with any "old nature" being present or absent. In fact if you read verse nine it assumes you have an old nature that sins. Otherwise you wouldn't need to confess it.
    But our mind is not completely renewed. The "renewing" of the mind is an on-going process. That is why it is expressed that way. The old nature we struggle with. Paul did not write in vain: "Be not conformed to this world." Christians struggle with "being conformed to this world." If you don't believe me set out what you believe is a standard of not being conformed to the world, and then start a thread on it. See how many people will agree with you.
    If you didn't have an old nature you would never have to repent.
    This is a stark admission on your part.

    Paul said in 1Cor.15:31, "I die daily." Why?
     
  20. preacher4truth

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    2 Corinthians 5:17 is over used to the extent it becomes a self-righteous proof-texted verse.


    One verse does not do away with other passages to believers, telling them to put off some things, and put on others.

    If the passage in 2 Cor. 5:17 were taken to the extent some on here take it, we would never have to be reminded to put off some things, and put on other things.

    This applies to believers:

    Put off the works of darkness; Romans 13:12

    Put away lying; Eph. 4:25

    Lay aside filthiness,; James 1:21

    Put off the old man; Eph. 4:22

    Put away anger, malice; Col 3:8

    Then we are told what to put on instead: Col 3:12; Galatians 3:27; Ephesians 6:12; Romans 13:12 and other passages I'm sure.

    The fact remains, no matter how holy any person wants to appear to others in their opinion here (using a proof-text mind you) and frankly, such an attitude is prideful as it is reflecting THEM and not Christ, and does not show any humility.

    So, the fact is, each of us struggle with the flesh (if you don't then you're being dishonest) and each day we either walk with Christ, and deny the old nature, the flesh, the old man, and serve Him instead. Sometimes we allow our old self to rise back up, and we blow it. If 2 Corinthians 5:17 were taken to the extent some on here want to take it, we would never ever even struggle with sin again, and would be perfectly holy, i.e. be in our glorified bodies while here on earth. This text doesn't teach this, however.

    Why do we sin? Because we have this treasure in earthen vessels my friends (as way of application and reminder). Either we are walking with God, or we are not. By the way, this thing about Christians looking for an excuse to sin is such an unfortunate attitude to have towards others. It comes across as not only attacking others, and of forbidden comparison of self with others, but really it comes across as "look at me, look how holy I am" while talking down about persons not even known by the one making this.

    The thing is, whenever a believer sins, he or she had chosen to do so, and gave in to the flesh nature that still is there, and that we are told to put away, a choice we make daily, and moment by moment, and in not deciding, we've made a decision anyway. Statements like I've mentioned are a person giving self over to pride, and the last time I looked this also is a sin.

    - Peace
     

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