Do you agree with this? Washer & Lordship salvation

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Jul 12, 2008.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    I just watched this 10 minute clip here from Paul Washer where he says that salvation is not easy. I don't know but Washer always drags me down. He makes it look like salvation is so hard and it's not something which happened in the past and which certain but something which has to be proven every day.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=cosxzl41E9E

    I also found another youtube video which says that Washer is a false teacher because he teaches Lordship salvation.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=cosxzl41E9E

    Is Lordship salvation not biblical?
    In order to get saved do you have to turn from your sins (repent from sins) or do you simply have to turn to Jesus and this is what repenting really means? I have heard both opinions. I wonder what one's right. If a pimp for example wants to get saved then does he have to be willing to stop being a pimp before he can get saved or can he get saved while still wanting to stay a pimp? Maybe this example is not so good but the real question is wether a person has to have made the conscious decision to really forsake ALL sins before she can get saved or wether the person first of all needs to be saved and have the Holy Spirit before she can even desire to do such a thing.
     
    #1 xdisciplex, Jul 12, 2008
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  2. Marcia

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    I don't think Jesus promises everyone a cross (the guy on the video said this) - some people do die for their faith but I think the point is that we should be willing to die for our faith.

    I think when one is saved one is also repenting. You can't want to keep going away from God and wanting to trust Christ at the same time. It's impossible.

    The living for God and being willing to give all up is a process of sanctification. You don't need this attitude in order to be saved; it's how you should become as you are transformed by the Holy Spirit and submit to God's will.

    I think this guy is just upset with the rote salvations where people just get "saved" without really understanding what it is. I think this happens when the full gospel is not given - in other words, do people know what they are saved from? Saying the gospel is to make us happy or give us a good life is not right -- when the gospel is given it should be clear that Jesus died to pay the penalty for sin -- not just to provide eternal life.

    I think these days we are hearing less and less about the dying to pay the penalty for sin, so this guy is reacting to that and to the gospel being watered down, which it is.
     
  3. xdisciplex

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    Hi Marcia,
    I think you're right. The gospel is really being watered down but the question is wether hard preaching is the right answer because what happens if you're preaching too hard and then end up making salvation look totally hard?
    For example it makes a huge difference if you say that a christian needs works to be saved or wether you say that works are not necessary but that works are simply a natural product of being saved. I just read this here and I wonder if it's right. It would be very important to know what James 2:18 really means. I have a friend who totally loves this verse and one time he even wrote me in an email that we are saved "by the lives we live" and when I told him that this sounds like works righteousness he disagreed with me. He's totally focused on "following Jesus" but the problem is that if following Jesus is a requirement of salvation then salvation once again includes works and unless you have the works you cannot be saved.

     
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: What if works could be thought of in two senses, ‘that for the sake of’ and ‘not without which?’ Could the possibility exist that we are not saved ‘for the sake of our works’ but neither will any be saved ‘apart from their works?’ Why would that not eliminate any talk of a works based salvation yet be in agreement to the Word of God and its commands of obedience, without which no man shall see God? Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
     
    #4 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jul 12, 2008
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  5. Marcia

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    The Bible is clear we are saved by grace through faith, not works. James says nothing to conflict with that but only reminds believers that their works are evidence of their faith. We always need to be spurned to do good works for God's glory. As Eph. 2.10 says:

    We are created "for good works" that we do after being saved.

    Some preachers are big on grace and others on the majesty of God and others are wanting to teach the seriousness of the cross and salvation. So it all evens out -- not all preachers can preach the same. This is why we have the Bible, and why we should check what preachers say against the Bible.
     
  6. Marcia

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    Re Matt 5.20, the scribes and Pharisees were outwardly righteous, following all the little laws, including their own. Jesus was pointing out how impossible it is for anyone to be that righteous - the only way our righteousness can "exceed" such apparent outward righteousness is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us when we have faith. This statement makes people realize they can't depend on themselves to be righteous. Our (imputed) righteousness comes from Christ through faith.
     
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Xdisciplex, what if a Sovereign God decided to make a being that was the sole cause of their moral actions (which by the way is the only morality makes any sense whatsoever) and as such a morally responsible agent? What if He made that being pure and without blemish, placing him and his helpmeet in a garden and allowed to choose between two alternatives, again necessary for morality to be predicated of their actions, making the way for blame or praise to be predicated to their formed intents?

    What if God set forth the punishment of eternal separation from God’s presence for disobedience? What if there was absolutely nothing that such a moral being could do to atone for a single sin, and yet disobeyed and by that disobedience incurred the full wrath of God's law? What if subsequent to that fall, God placed into action by His mercy without any coercion or help from any other being, a plan of grace designed and implemented by which sinful man could be redeemed?

    Under such a scenario, could a Sovereign God place conditions upon man if He so chose, without which he would not be redeemed? What would make the fulfillment of those conditions meritorious in nature? What would make the fulfillment of those conditions in any way take away from the fact that God’s salvation was by His grace alone, and not due to the efforts, wisdom, or even obedience of the sinful creatures He created?
     
    #7 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jul 12, 2008
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  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: I do not believe the Scriptures teach imputed righteousness as you appear to me as describing. Certainly there is nothing righteous we can do to merit eternal life, and no amount of righteousness could ever atone for even a solitary sin, yet just the same, righteousness is a moral judgment by God pronounced upon the intents of man that must be, due to the moral nature of righteousness, involved in as man forms intents in agreement with God's laws.

    Certainly Christ is righteous, but we are commanded to form intents consistent with His intents, and in doing so God judges our intents and subsequent actions as righteous. 1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    That certainly sounds like the intents and subsequent actions chosen and carried out voluntarily by the individual as lead by God’s Spirit to me. If man's intents are judged as righteous, man must be 'the cause' of them if righteousness is a moral term and if such moral intents are predicated of man as righteousness. Nothing ‘imputed’ as you descibed there that I see. How about you?
     
    #8 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jul 12, 2008
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  9. jdlongmire

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    Once a person has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, they will acknowledge Jesus Christ as Savior, Lord and God, repent of their sins and begin living a life that is evidence of the hope that lives within them.

    That does not mean they will never sin again, but that sin will so offend and grieve the Spirit within them, they will be convicted more and more to turn away from their sin and be conformed to the image of Christ.

    If a person does not feel this conviction and continually repent (turn away) from their sins, then they should rightfully doubt their salvation.

    Paul Washer is a great man of God and we should imitate him as he imitates Christ.
     
  10. steaver

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    Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

    Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

    Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

    Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    :jesus:
     
  11. steaver

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    Oh when will you abandon this silly double speak? :praying: :praying: :praying:

    Can't you see the folly in your thoughts? "Nothing righteous we can do to merit eternal life" YET JUST THE SAME a person must do righteously to be saved.

    This is not "JUST THE SAME". It is quite different.

    he that doeth righteousness is righteous WHY? EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS.

    It is an attribute of the born of God. It is how we judge the professing teacher.

    1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    :thumbs:
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Sorry, I cannot follow you here. It would appear evident to me that you have your why’s and how’s mixed up.
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Sorry JD, but I believe the first part of your remark is patently false and misleading. If what you are saying is true, Calvinistic limited atonement is established as well as predestination of not only the regenerated but of the damned as well.

    Man is no dead log floating down a stream that 'has no will and makes no choices' as I have heard so many times. God does not need to, nor does He, regenerate the heart prior to repentance. You have it precisely backwards, and so do a lot of others. Regeneration comes subsequent to our turning to Him in obedient repentance and faith, not before.
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    If there was ever an issue that need to be set straight it is the issue of repentance and what is necessary for it to be accomplished. God calls on men everywhere to repent. That is delegated to some kind of a sad joke if in fact only those that God regenerates are able to repent. Why would God call all men everywhere to repent if in fact it only is accomplished ‘subsequent to’ something God Himself must do to a selected few and not all in order to be accomplished?

    We need to start thinking right about religion again.
     
    #14 Heavenly Pilgrim, Jul 13, 2008
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  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    If God must do something to us in order for man to repent, then only those to which He does what ever He must do can repent. It would be impossible for any to do that which they could have only done as a result of something God must do, but it was obviously withheld from them by God, evidenced by their failure to do it.
    If that is not absolute and unadulterated necessitated fatalism, please tell us why. If it is all of God and none of man, nothing man can do or will do has any affect whatsoever on the outcome. What is all the stir about Lordship salvation if the bottom line is that either God has done something for you that He has not done for others, and that if you do anything it has nothing to do with your choices and formed intents but of those of God alone?

    You cannot escape the illogical and deterministic consequences of Calvinism with Lordship salvation unless you involve the will of man as a cause of their formed intents, including that of repentance. If repentance is subsequent to and a mere necessitated bi-product of God regenerating the soul, deterministic fatalism is still the logical end of the doctrine, and Lordship salvation is just another code word for Calvinistic deterministic fatalism. What God causes will come to pass, and what He does not cause will not come to pass. If Lordship salvation is only possible subsequent to God being the sole cause of it, then the lack thereof, or failure for one to live according to Lordship salvation’s tenants, is nothing more or less than the necessitated consequences of God’s refusal to make it possible.

    Under such a necessitated scheme, man is not, not could he be, responsible for God either being Lord of his life or not. All is necessitated by God.
     
  16. steaver

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    HP, the hyper large print only eats up space. :thumbs:

    The repentence necessary for regeneration is turning from your own righteousnesses to the righteousness that is in Christ through faith.

    Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    Act 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    Afterwards the eternal seal of the Holy Spirit indwellment helps the new born babe transform it's life in Christ. We who have been born of God then repent daily as the Holy Spirit teaches us and as we fall into temptations and sins.

    God Bless! :praying:
     
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: If we were righteous antecedent to salvation we would not need to be saved. The problem is that we were sinners and not righteous, needing to have sins that are past atoned for. Now this may indeed prove to be a shock to some, but God calls on man to create themselves a new heart. Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Repentance involves a change of heart on the part of the sinner for the act of disobedience to known commandments of God in which they have before transgressed. We are not called to stop being righteous, but are called to repent from our wickedness and to accept God’s forgiveness and new life in Christ.

    Self righteousness is for all practical purposes a misnomer. It is not righteousness at all in reality. It is the absence of righteousness. It is selfishness and deception.

    With that said do not think that we are not to act righteously as believers or that we cannot act righteously, for we can and God commands us to do so. God, through the forgiveness of sins that are past, has gave us a clean slate, the righteousness of Christ being substituted for our past sins and our hearts washed clean by the blood of the Lamb. Now as we walk forward from that point, as we choose the right as opposed to our old ways of selfishness with the help of the Holy Spirit, we indeed are commanded to act in a righteous manner and such obedience is in fact judged as righteousness. 1Jo 3:7 “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.”

    Make no mistake that such is NOT self-righteousness or deception. It is the result of a clean heart and intents formed in cooperation with a heart of love and gratitude for what God has done for us in accordance to love and benevolence. The norm for ever believer should be to form intents consistent with obedience to God’s laws, which God correctly terms as righteous behavior.



    HP: What is your concept of repentance Steaver? Is it the mere ‘daily confession’ of a wrong? When one states that they repent daily, are they saying that they are committing the same sins day after day? If so, how can one say they are sincerely repentant?

    I am not trying to put you on the spot personally. Let’s just discuss the issues without making it personal as to your own life. If there are changes to be made in either of our lives God’s Spirit will be faithful if the truth is brought into the open and our hearts are willing to follow in obedience. Fair enough? :)
     
  18. Marcia

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    Heavenly pilgrim, you said you don't believe in "imputed righteousness" but Steaver posted several scriptures that teach this. Here are some more (some might be the same that Steaver posted):

    even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; Rom. 3.22


    Imputed rigtheousness is what the Bible teaches. Yes, we are told to pursue righteousness and to practice it, but we are not righteous in and of ourselves. And the only way anyone can do anything in righteousness is if they have had faith in Christ.
     
  19. trustitl

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    Then stop listening to him.
     
  20. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Marcia, there is not one verse that Steaver has posted concerning righteousness that teaches the view of imputed righteousness taught by those in Calvinistic circles. I believe without a shadow of a doubt that the Calvinistic view of imputed righteousness is the view of Steaver, and must in fact be your’s also. Certainly Christ has, by His obedience, sufferings and death, made it possible for God treat us governmentally as though we have never sinned IF we fulfill certain conditions. The idea that Steaver would have us believe is that due to Christ’s obedience, sufferings and death, blinders are placed over the eyes of Almighty Omnipotent God and that regardless of our formed intents and subsequent actions they are all seen by God as righteousness if one has ‘Christ’s righteousness imputed to them.’ That is simply an erroneous view that is no where supported by any Scripture whatsoever. The passages mentioned do not support such a view in the least.

    Furthermore, it is the held belief of Steaver as I have read and understood him, that it matters not how ‘unrighteous’ a believer might act, that it never brings one under the condemnation of the law and its corresponding penalty. That is yet another falsehood with no Scriptural support. “The soul that sinneth, it shall certainly die” is the Scriptural admonition.

    We would do well to take heed to which sins are remitted by the righteousness of Christ upon the fulfillment of repentance and faith, i.e. “sins that are past.”

    Certainly no one would be righteous without the aide of the Holy Spirit, but that is a far cry from what Steaver, and now seemingly yourself, are presenting. No one will be counted righteous without acting personally in a righteous manner. 1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    God is not blind that He cannot see, nor deaf that He cannot hear. No sin will be forgiven or set aside without the fulfillment of the conditions God has set forth in His Word. To believe otherwise is to presume upon the grace of God, which should be avoided at all cost. If we think that God will overlook or sins as a believer yet condemn all others for the same intents and subsequent acts, we are believing an untruth. God cannot and will not countenance sin. Our duty is to comply with God’s commands and repent and turn from our sins with the help of the Holy Spirit, and walk humbly and righteous before Him, again with the strength and help that He has proffered.

    The highway to heaven is one of holiness. Isa 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

    Those that pass thereon will either walk in a manner consistent with holiness, or find themselves in the end deceived. It should be the desire and aim of every believer to so walk their life before the Lord. All God desires and needs is a willing heart. He has promised the strength and help and has promised success to those whose hearts are stayed on Him.
     

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