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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Yeshua1, Sep 25, 2012.
With gifts in operation?
The gifts have NOTHING to do with the gospel. You are confusing the "gifts" of the Spirit with the "FRUIT" of the Spirit. John the Baptist was considered the greatest man born of woman by Jesus Christ and he did not perform one single miracle, speak in tongues or any other sign gift.
Christ prayed in the Spirit but never spoke or prayed in tongues. None of the prophets needed a prayer tongue to speak to God in prayer.
I don't know if I do or not. Doesn't the ecumenical creeds define all of the good news? Jesus is the Son of God who resolved the animosity between God and humans by being born, observing the Mosaic Covenant perfectly, dying for our sins, and rising on the third day? Exactly what have I left out?
How do you know that?
First, because "tongues" was a "sign" gift not given until Pentecost.
Second, because when the disciples asked to be taught how to pray he did not instruct them in a prayer tongue. Remember, the whole argument around praying in tongues is that one cannot communicate with God effectively apart from praying in a tongue.
Third, the gospels record many of his prayers and yet not a single solitary word about praying in tongues or that his disciples ever heard him pray in tongues.
Fourth praying "in the Spirit" has nothing to do with tongues as that would mean no one prior to Pentecost, including Christ did not prayer "in the Spirit" but always prayed "in the flesh." Praying, preaching, singing, teaching "in the Spirit" means merely UNDER THE DIRECTION or IN SUBMISSION or UNDER THE CONTROL of the Spirit.
I don't hold to them still operating, but was curious if any here sis attend a church that still does?
I'm on my way to 72 years and since I can remember was interested by The Scriptures and the faith of man. Very early in life I was taught about the 'Pentecostals'. Later in life I learned they are also called 'Charismatics'. A few times in my life I did business transactions with one or other of them. Like my dad did before me. Both of us came second every time.
I have often heard of other person's experiences with Pentecostals ... often, I say. It has NOT ONCE been a nice testimonial to Christianity.
Today --- for years long now - when I hear AGS or FGG or any acronym or nickname or real name of the 'tongues' people, I run ... as hard and as far as possible. My standard reaction to enquiries after my attitude towards 'tongues speakers' is .. O, die heppiekleppies ... een klap van die windmeul is genoeg om nooit weer reg te kom nie.
My church doesn't preach the "full gospel" as it's currently defined, but it preaches all the gospel there is.
I like that.
Spoken as a true baptist!
Like I advised you before, why don't you talk to some of the many millions worldwide
who have been baptized with the Holy Spirit and are utilizing the 9 spiritual gifts of 1 Cor 12?
These people are not hard to locate.
Art thou afraid of what they might convince you of?
Just because you had some bad experiences in a particular church does not discount any of God's truths.
ALMIGHTY GOD and His Spiritual Truths stand true forever, regardless of how humans respond to them.
Every converted, regenerated person has been baptized with the Holy Spirit.
was part of them over 10 years, trained intheir schools/Elder in their church, so can say that that view is NOT what the scriptures actually teach!
There at least 2 reasons why you guys still do not have spiritual understanding on this particular topic:
-- You haven't really looked closely at the evidence I have already presented, esp. the 14 verses in the chart
-- God has not opened your eyes to the truth of this matter, which is necessary with some spiritual things, e.g. the Trinity
Perhaps you'd like to explain the signs and wonders around the world, resulting in millions of unbelievers coming to the Lord?
Thou art now invited to state publicly whether these signs and wonders are of the Devil or of God.
Warning: attributing work of the Holy Spirit to Satan is the unpardonable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Just how have your churches been doin' lately with regard to evangelising?
Hasn't Christianity fell out of favor, coming under increasing attacks by unbelievers?
Isn't it common knowledge that the old mainline churches have been closin' down (esp. in Europe),
while the Spirit-led churches, which believe in God's signs and wonders, have been increasing?
Continuing to insist there isn't solid Scriptural evidence is very weak, and undermines the work of the Lord around the world.
Thou art treading on very dangerous ground.
In other words, you CANNOT prove that these signs and wonders are NOT of the Lord!
Opinions just don't cut it ... spiritual truth is found when your spiritual experiences line up (agree) with the Word!
None of mine have EVER contradicted God's Word.
Regardless of the condition of OUR Bibles, God honors OUR Bibles and He honors those who honor them.
I.E. What's important is OBEDIENCE to what we have now, not what might have been written thousands of years ago.
How do you know your experiences were not demonic in origin, or from yourself?
Why would Satan confirm what the Bible teaches re: believers performing signs and wonders
for the purposes of leading people to Christ and healing believers in the churches?
Why would you think that I have been capable of such miracles?
Forgive me if you have already done so, but ...
please give us some of your reasons for concluding (after 10 years) that Pentecostalism is false.
Hopefully, they aren't due to the words and/or deeds of human beings, whom Jesus says are all EVIL (Luke 11:13).
I.E. I hope you haven't judged God and His truths by what Christians say and do,
because they are totally unrelated. Spiritual truth is simply that ... spiritual truth.
The part of it that word of faith/health/wealth/prosperity all hang out in are false, as they deny the very natures off God/man/atonement/scriptures etc!
I am NOT saying ALL pentacostalists are into bad/demonic theology, as was raised up in Assemblies of God, and they would be similiar to Free Will Baptists, as they would see gifts for today,and healings, but NOT persons with gifts of healings/miracles, and that there are NOT modern apostles/prophets as word of faith heretics such as Copeland/hagin?hinn?prince etc!
Okay, guess what? I think I understand what you are saying, and I agree with it!
I believe what God's word says about these things.
And I believe in my spiritual experiences, which totally line up with God's word.
However, I do NOT believe in what many Pentecostals say and do.
We must NOT look to man, but to the Lord and His precious word.
Many of us totally discount the influence that Satan has on man.
Satan is the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of the world.
Let's not forget that Satan is the god/ruler of this world.
Who do you think he attacks the hardest?
Those with the most spiritual knowledge and spiritual power.
These are his most dreaded foes ... his really potent enemies.
I attended a Pentecostal University partly to learn what it was they believed. I came away not wanting anything to do with that denomination. However, speaking on the Health and Wealth gospel (false gospel that it is) my friends and I would poke fun of it adapting a phrase consistently used by pastors and people holding that view in the sermons and discussions, specifically "Name it and Claim it" and revised it to "Blab it and Grab it". Just thought that was a funny antidote about that particular view.
I appreciate your sincerely-held opinion, and it is entirely understandable.
Some things one really has to experience for themselves to believe and understand.
This is why Jesus commands us not to judge others ... because we haven't walked in their shoes.
When one goes through the born-again experience, it usually results in
"I know that I know that I know that what happened to me was from God".
And these people spend several years (at least) "on fire" for Him and His gospel truth.
You simply have never had the experience of Jesus baptizing you with the Holy Spirit
with the initial evidence of speaking (even just a few words like me) in tongues.
The result of this experience is a tremendous increase in spiritual power
regarding one or more of those 9 spiritual gifts in 1 Cor 12.
In the NT churches, all of the 5-fold leaders (Eph 4:11) had this experience.
But, Satan and men have destroyed all of that heritage over the years,
resulting in many weak, powerless, and dying churches.
Historically, the only way masses of people come to the Lord has been through God's signs and wonders.
But, He normally only works through believers ...
and unbelief in God's promises in His word has done away with the gifts.