Featured Do you attend a "Full Gospel" Church?

I started out my independent Christian life with Pentecostals and personally allowed myself to be guided by those Pentecostals in seeking what they interpreted to be the baptism in the Spirit and speaking in tongues. I have spent the past 40 years since that time exhaustively reading the very best defense presented by leading Pentecostals from all aspects of its very diverse movement. I have studied the history of the welsh revivals as well as those in America. Many of my family members are part of the movement and some are ministers in that movement (foursquare, assembly of God, Word of Faith, etc.).

I know your arguments and interpretations minutely. I have done intense research and contextual based exegesis of all pertinent passages in Acts and 1 Cor. 12-14.

My conclusion? The movement is not of the Spirit of God - none of it! A large portion is humanistic in origin but the greater portion is pure demonic.

The so-called spiritual gifts being exercised today are no different than those that have been exercised in many other world religions, especially the new age movement and much is directly demonic power.

The scare tactic that one is blaspheming the Holy Spirit by attributing the Pentecostal movement to Satan is pure perversion and ignorance of the contextual understanding of the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. The contextual factors for this sin are:

1. Unregenerate persons who hate Christ
2. full light it is the Spirit of God
3. denial that Jesus is the Messiah

The scriptures used to support this movement and so-called gifts are jerked out of context, perverted and misapplied.

 

I appreciate your charity.

This is true.

I know what you mean. I myself had this experience. I witnessed to many people where ever I could. I couldn't get enough of spending time in God's word. I remember waking up of 4:00 in the morning just so I could have an hour of praise and worship time. It certainly was a beautiful period in my life which was even more glorious because I was young and I lived in Kenya where God's wonders are beautifully displayed. Thus I sang out loud in the open under the stars "O lord my God, when I in awsome wonder consider all the works thy hand has made, I see the stars, I hear the mighty thunder, thy power throughout the universe displayed, Then sings my soul, my savior God to thee, how great thou art, how great thou art!" with hands up raised giving in to that glorious worship of praise to my Lord and Savior. It certainly was a precious begining to so great a faith given to me.

I know what you are trying to say and the theology behind what you are saying. However, it is untrue. I have experience the charism of the Holy Spirit. Our theological language is different. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit (immersed in the Holy Spirit) at faith, meaning I recieved the whole of the Holy Spirit not a part initially and the rest later. And I've recieved further graces experiencing the charism what you would call "baptism of the Holy Spirit". In maybe your view but certainly that of Pentecostals there are two experiences 1) Conversion 2) the empowering of the Holy Spirit usually subsequent to conversion, and always evidenced by speaking in tongues. I disagree with this theology attempting to explain the experience Christians have with regard to recieving the special Graces of the Holy Spirit as put forward by pentecostals.

So maybe you do hold that view that the pentecostals do. I want to point out however, that though the majority of Health and Wealth Gospel adherents are Pentecostal that all Pentecostals aren't necissarily Adherents to the Health and Wealth Gospel.

Certainly God is working in your life which is very good! And the point of the Graces which God gives you is revealed in bringing about those spiritual gifts. However, remember what Paul says

. We can easily get caught away in the emotional experience and miss out on the mission. I've seen this phenominon at the pentecostal university I went to. People being pushed down when they were prayed over so that they could experience being "slain in the spirit". People going into grotesque jigs flaying their arms about risking self or other injuries, running the aisles, shouting at the devil taking "command over him". Remeber it is out of these groups that the oft ridiculed snake handlers come out of.

I beg to differ. Satan hasn't destroyed these experiences as you can see them at every period in history. Catholics today have their "Charistmatics" as well. I believe the University of Stubenville is famous for these.

masses of people come to God in many and diverse ways not just through charistmatic movements. Signs and wonders certainly evidence God and often give credibility to those he sends. Masses of People came to God through Jonathan Edwards boring sermon "sinners in the hands of an angry God." It started a whole movement.

God's gifts aren't done away with. They are still in operation but what does Paul say?

the point of the gifts are to build up the church and tongues are useless if they don't work to build up the church. Speaking in tongues is not always necissary for this therefore why have them when they are not needed. If I need healing I don't want to be gifted with speaking in tongues but healing.

 

Again, it is all very simple ... if one hasn't experienced it, one hasn't had the revelation of the truth of it.
Some people merely see it, and that's why they don't believe it.

A simple example ... after my wife received this baptism, her spirituality increased dramatically.
She received the gifts of discernment, tongues, and prophecy (not wisdom ... ha!).

On the way to church, the Lord would give her paragraphs of information which He desired for her to edify the church with.
Then during praise and worship, she spoke the words of the Lord for about 10 minutes to 500 people,
mostly concerning the condition and direction of the church.
This could have just as well been given in tongues, but then someone would have had to interpret the whole deal.

She is a godly woman. She has seen 8 ft tall angels surrounding a believer's house, etc.

This happened to me also, in Bulgaria ...
While praying over me, a deacon had a vision of many angels lined up on both sides of the road where I would be travelling.
Just another confirmation to him that I had been sent by God.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is simply God's ANOINTING for some task.
Nothing to do with a previous born-again salvation experience.
As with the OT prophets, the Spirit comes UPON the person receiving this baptism.
Scriptures concerning this baptism never talk about the Holy Spirit coming/going INSIDE.

People who fight against this baptism are fighting against God and His anointed.
Born-again Christians are not anointed, they have just been born-again (from above).
Praise the Lord!
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You are certainly allowed your perspective on this experience. Though I have a different theological view on these same things I want to caution you about your presentation of this particular experience you've had. I bolded the particular part I want you to pay attention to. I had a friend who became born again. I was going to an IFB at the time and he came to my church however because of his work schedule the only christian fellowship he could participate in was this pentecostal church which he went to. He was what you would call baptized in the Holy Spirit. He spoke in tongues and was really excited. However, his work schedule changed and he attended my church again which taught that the signs of the Holy Spirit, tongues and such went out with the apostolic age. And so he stopped the practice. Well as his job required him once again to change his hours he re-visited this pentecostal church where the preacher said that to have been given the gifting of speaking and tongues and then to repress it was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Now worried that his salvation was void because he committed the sin that could not be forgiven he went into a great depression and had a nervous breakdown. So my caution is to understand that if people don't share your perspective it doesn't mean they are actively working against God. The thought of that would horrify them. And if you are right then that special "baptism" is for a particular mission that God has not called them to as yet. Though as I've said before I believe our theological language certainly differs about this subject.

 

IMO, that Pentecostal pastor was in great error, which is not unusual at all.
So, does this lead us to criticize God and/or His spiritual truths?
Is this deplorable situation their fault?

Remember in the OT, God said: "Touch not my anointed."

This anointing baptism may well "only" (with apologies) be for a person to be a prayer warrior or intercessor.
Basically unknown and unseen, but perhaps he/she will receive a front-row throne right in front of Da Really Big Throne.
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Okay, I'll dig out the chart again ...

The 14 Scripture PASSAGES below explain this baptism with the Holy Spirit.
And the important DETAILS in each passage are shown in the chart below.

Please notice how these details are so inter-connected (linked together) in the chart.
And realize that all the details of an event are seldom recorded every time the event occurs.

1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6

------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
the Promise --------Y-Y---Y-------------------------
baptism with H.S. ----Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
filled with H.S. -------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
received H.S. --------------------Y-------Y---------
speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
power --------------Y-Y-----------Y----Y------------
boldness -------------------Y-Y-----------------Y---
miracles -------------------Y---Y---Y--Y--------Y---

Unfortunately, it will require some work to read the 14 verses and see how they fit together.

If someone wishes, I can provide the much longer explanation version.

P.S. Ever experienced finding something previously "hidden" to you in Scripture?
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Who on this thread has criticized God and/or his spiritual truths? Often a mistake is made by men who believe that their perspective equates with God's thoughts and truths. I'm certain that this faulty Pastor fully believed that this gifting was so important that to deny their effictiveness is a denial of God himself. Which isn't true. Which is why both you and I agree he was wrong. How God operates his gifts are under speculation here not that he gives them and not that he doesn't reveal himself truthfully. Unlike some here I believe that God still gifts people with these gifts but I also believe that he gives these gifts based on his economy. As I've showed you before with Paul that the Spirit gives what gifts are necissary for the building up of the church and if there is no need of tongues is that really economic? I disagree with pentecostals that what I call a special Charism and you call "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is always evident in the speaking of tongues. Certainly tongues are a sign of this Charism but that doesn't mean the lack of them necissarily means an absence of that Charism. In his writing that I have Pointed out Paul though he claims to have practice speaking in tongues saying

though he quickly dismisses that gifting in favor of quiet meditative prayer in the next verse

Becuase that gifting as pleasing as it is to us takes a lower place in our theology than the more weightier matter of Charity or Love

It also takes a lower place than living and speaking plainly about your faith

and more importantly

Prophesy in this context is not speaking about revelation of the future but proclaiming the word of the Lord. Ie Revealing the mind of God through his instruction. It is clear Paul would rather a church be silent in speaking in tongues or keep it personally than to have a ruckus of tongues jepordizing the promulgation of the faith.

What is deplorable is the emphasis of Tongues over Charity and the teaching of the faith.

And remember what Paul said.

and again

and again

to emphasise the point

Maybe so indeed certainly a person with this kind of heart will be a true immitator of Christ.

 

I am still wondering if you distinguish between the 2 major uses of tongues:

1) evidence/confirmation of a person having been baptized with the Holy Spirit

2) one of the 9 spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor 12

These 2 are unrelated, except to have the second you need (first) to have the first.
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I did get a degree at a Pentecostal university (Just so you know Lee University the premier University for the Church of God) so I do know the views about tongues. Still I disagree with their theology about them. In fact I was just invited back for an alumi fund raising event. BTW disagree doesn't mean everything I hold in disagreement just certain points.

 

IMO, everything written in the NT is for our benefit today
(even Paul's instructions to slave masters and slaves, which still exist today).

Paul's instructions about the 9 spiritual power gifts, how they are to be used, etc. are for us today.

These were always supposed to have been the spiritual power of the church
to be used to overpower the enemy, heal the sick, and many other etc.

However, the one who won the right to be "the god/ruler of this world" saw to it that this would indeed NOT be the case.
It behooved HIM to have the spiritual power in which to destroy God's people, prevent many from being born again, etc.

The greatest liar and deceiver in the history of the world has always been too clever for the church.
And this is no surprise ... he WAS none other than God's #1 archangel in Heaven, above even Gabriel and Michael.

Historically, the church has often been run by men who were not even born-again.
How many RC and Orthodox priests do you think were born-again?
And the ones who were born-again towed the line of the have-nots to keep their jobs.
Except priests like Martin Luther and others.

The doctrine that the spiritual power gifts have ceased came directly from the pits of Hell.
Just because you don't have any of them is NO EXCUSE to preach that they have ceased!

Historically, humans have always been total spiritual idiots.
The ONLY ones who have NOT been total spiritual idiots are those who have been born-again,
those who have had the Holy Spirit INSIDE of them, trying to teach them "all things".
But, even these can easily be deceived ... just witness some of the idiot Pentecostals.

Like it or not ... Satan has always been "the god/ruler of this world".
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You just as well believe that all servant gifts (Eph. 4:11) are still for today as well - apostles, prophets!

However, that is simply not true! What you fail to realize is that the Bible has specific limited designs and dispensations for certain things. For example, the servant gifts "apostles" and "prophets" are explicitly stated to be foundational gifts (Eph. 2:20) upon which the church is founded rather than continuing gifts. Moreover, the apostolic office has certain sign gifts exclusive for apostles only (2 Cor. 12:12) which they alone can communicate to others through the laying on of their hands (Acts 8:15-17; Rom. 1:11; etc.). For example, the gift of tongues is explicitly given a specific Biblical design (Isa.28:12-15 with 1 Cor. 14:20-22).

Although the PERSON of Jesus Christ is the same today, yesterday and forever, his METHODS and MEANS are not the same today, yesterday and forever.

The Pentecostal movement is anything but "spiritual" as it is the most divisive, confused, anti-Spirit movement in history.

There is not one aspect of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement that has ever passed the Biblical tests for a prophet (1 Jn. 4:1,6; Deut. 13:1-5; 18:20-22; etc.). Every single solitary one of their prophets have been proven to be false prophets equally as Joseph Smith, Russell, Ellen G. White, etc. One false prophesy condemned the prophet to death - no second chances. The gift of "prophecy" among the Pentecostal/charismatic movement is characterized by false prophecies and I can cite scores of them. The movement is no better than the "spirit" of prophecy that characterizes it.

The modern Penecostal movement had its rise along with the other "Restoration" prophetic movements (1800-1910) all of which are 1700 years too late and all of which characterize false prophets then and now.

 

Biblicist, you have hit the nail on the head!

 

evangelist 7, You like so many people on these forums are really insulting Jesus, not us. He said He would build His church and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. You insult His name which means, "He will save His people from their sins." He told us that the last days would be like the days of Noah, not many would believe. There is no need for new revelation, the reason many proclaim that there is is because they don't study or believe what has already been said.

 

My most hearty congratulations to you guys who believe that
the millions of people all over the world who have come to the Lord though His mighty signs and wonders
were successfully deceived by Satan.

Gee, I though Jesus came to destroy the power of the enemy!

This was His most powerful (and sure way) way of doing just that ... through incredible signs and wonders!
And He chooses to do this for those in foreign lands who are ignorant/neutral with NO BIASES (unbelief) like you guys have.
The Lord chooses to ignore most of you who are in UNBELIEF of His Scriptural promises.

Side note: I believed with all of my heart in Jesus' promises in the Gospels,
and went forth utilizing them, and experienced many signs and wonders in Jesus' name,
resulting in many coming to belief in the Savior.
But, you guys insist it was all done by Satan.

If you don't believe in Jesus' Great Commission instructions, WHY believe in His other instructions?
If you choose to not believe everything, you have simply written your own Bible.

The NT does NOT promise that God's signs and wonders will cease.
But the churches have promised this.
Why?
Because church leaders without the anointing baptism and spiritual gifts chose to believe Satan.
It was convenient for them to believe a lie ... and remain highly-esteemed leaders of their powerless churches.
But, all the while the real leaders should have been God's chosen vessels who had His anointing.

Of course the 5-fold ministry (Eph 4:11) was ALWAYS supposed to remain in effect.
What better way of strengthening and expanding the church?
But, the church has prevailed, and has not been destroyed.
Happy now? Great. I'm sure the Lord is ecstatic.

You guys believe that the many millions who have been miraculously healed and given
a kernel of faith large enough to lead them to believe and be saved ... were deceived by Satan.

Yup, I believe in Santa Claus and da tooth fairy too!

Please carry on enjoying the modern-day version of blaspheming of the work of the Holy Spirit.
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First and foremost you are ASSUMING what is contrary to fact. Most of Pentecostalism do not preach the gospel of Christ and have no clue to the true gospel but preach "another gospel" of justification by works.

Second, Christ and Paul are very clear that the revival in the latter end of the age is a PSUEDO-Miracle revival Mt. 24:24-25; 2 Thes. 2:9, while the true kingdom will be dwindling to the point that Christ rhetorically asks shall he even find faith when he comes (Lk. 18:8) as the true kingdom will be decreasing and "hid" among the false stuff of the professing kingdom (Mt.13).

You are one of those who are deceived and do believe in the "tooth fairy."

 

Please edify us with your list of Pentecostal missionary/evangelical outreaches
which thou hast attended throughout the world, and who the main missionary/evangelist was.

This should prove to be quite enlightening indeed for everyone! Thanks.
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As explained before ...

This "movement" has been used by God all over the world to confirm Jesus' Gospel,
which has brought millions to salvation ...
not to mention the millions who have been healed physically, emotionally, mentally, etc.

But you, Biblicist, couldn't care less about any of these things!
All you care about is spewing your venom against God's latter days out-pouring of His Spirit,
which has not been handled very well at all by many "Christians".

You have previously been challenged to speak of your experiences in these Pentecostal/Charismatic
meetings around the world, where you say the "positive" results were all done by Satan!
IMO, this is modern-day blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit.

You have refused to speak to this challenge!
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