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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jedi Knight, Feb 13, 2010.
Give some scriptures that support your view when the Church started....and your thoughts also.:type:
1 Corinthians 3:10-12 (New American Standard Bible)
10According to (A)the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder (B)I laid a foundation, and (C)another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
11For no man can lay a (D)foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
Ephesians 2:19-21 (New American Standard Bible)
19So then you are no longer (A)strangers and aliens, but you are (B)fellow citizens with the saints, and are of (C)God's household,
20having been (D)built on (E)the foundation of (F)the apostles and prophets, (G)Christ Jesus Himself being the (H)corner stone,
21(I)in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into (J)a holy temple in the Lord,
The church in the form we know it today, yes I think began at Pentacost
Excellent post. I agree the church in the form we see it today had it's beginnings of 'restoration', or enlargement, at Pentecost. Care to comment on this passage? (I'll probably get pounced and trounced on by the Greek guys):
38 This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us: Acts 7
ekklhsia ekklesia ek-klay-see'-ah
from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):--assembly, church.
Also, the word "ekklesia" (assembly) is used here in this verse describing an unbelieving mob.
Ac*19:32 Some therefore cried one thing, and some another: for the assembly was confused; and the more part knew not wherefore they were come together.
I think we need to make the distinction by calling it the New Testament Church, rather than just "church".
Oh no !! It was a Greek gal !! So does that mean that there was an Old Testament Church?
We can pinpoint the beginning of the church. It was when Jesus completed his selection of the twelve.
Mark 3:13-15 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: And they came unto him. And he ordained the twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach. And to have the power to heal sicknesses and cast out devils.
Whatever the disciples had on the day of Pentecost, they already had before Pentecost. They had a Head, they had ordination, they had a commission, they had divine power, they had the ordinances.
After selecting the 12 and so on, Jesus issues this promise:
The Builder said his church was still future from the time of his speaking.
Pentecost was the fulfilment.
I agree with this. :type: Yet I do see a larger scope of the United Saints that put their faith in God since the beginning .
Hello Sister Amy! :jesus:called out His disiples together and thus is an assembly.
The Church exists in and through the Lord Jesus Christ and so, in its present form, is a distinctive New Testament reality [New Geneva Bible, page 1864]. However, as a people of the promised New Covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-33] which was instituted by the Lord Jesus Christ [Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-13], who, as the incarnate God, is the promised seed of Abraham [Galatians 3:16] and the promised Messiah [John 4:25,26], there is a continuity with spiritual Israel, God’s covenant people of the Old Testament. The predominant teaching of the Church since Pentecost is that God has only one people and that the New Testament Church is the Israel of God, the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 writes of the Church in Section VI as follows: “The New Testament speaks also of the Church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”
Scripture passages that teach that God has only one people are:
Galatians 3:29, KJV
29. And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 2:28,29, KJV
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
Colossians 2:11, KJV
11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
John P.Newport in The Lion and The Lamb [page 196] says of these passages:
“If believers are the true sons of Abraham, the true circumcision, then we must conclude that the Church is the true spiritual Israel, even though the word itself may not be used of the Church. This I believe to be confirmed by the expression, ‘the Israel of God’ in Galatians 6:16”
Galatians 6:16, KJV
16. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Jesus Christ told the Jewish doubters in John 8:56: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. The Apostle Paul, in his epistle to the church at Galatia, wrote:
Galatians 3:8-9, KJV
8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
The 11th chapter of Hebrews tells us that the Old Testament Saints considered themselves strangers and pilgrims on earth and vividly portrays their longing to see that city whose builder and maker is God. That city is the the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn [Hebrews 12:22-24], and.the chaste virgin bride of Jesus Christ [2 Corinthians 11:2].
I usually agree with you, Tom, but not here. The Twelve did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at this time, which I think is one of the marks of the Church, in the sense that it is the church of Jesus Christ.
After all, look at how they scattered when Jesus was arrested and how Peter denied Jesus. But look at how they persisted, preached, and endured imprisonment and even death once they had the indwelling Holy Spirit.
I do not think the church of Jesus exists without its members (believers) indwelt by the Holy Spirit, which is also why I do not think the assembly in the OT was the church.
I disagree Marcia,Jesus told Peter in the garden"the SPIRIT is willing,but the flesh is weak". Peter wrote from experience after he denied Christ and "the disciples scattered". Peter 5:10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
Jesus has to be glorified and after He was glorified He would send the Holy Spirit back to fill the body.
The church to me that was hidden until Pentecost that I am speaking about, not as most people see it, it is Christ body.
It doesn't matter if you where looking forward to the one who would crush the serpents head or looking back at Christ you are apart of the same body.
The church the body of Christ is what I am referring to.
I pray for a revival, we need it so bad.
Peter did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit when they were in the garden, Jedi. You are misinterpreting "spirit" here. It is so clear that the disciples were changed men after Pentecost.
I posted these on the other thread as well:
The fact about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit after Jesus ascended is not a matter of opinion but of clear biblical teaching.
Glad you see clearly to pull the mote out 4 me. The Holy Spirit will come UPON THEM WITH POWER. Jesus said the Spirit would come upon you AND be in you. If your theological ducks are in a row ....that's great! Here is a little read from John Piper on it.http://www.desiringgod.org/Resource...vers_Experienced_the_Spirit_Before_Pentecost/
God always opens my eyes and has revealed more to me.
Some disciple's did receive the Holy Spirit before Pentecost, not when men think they had but when God decided to give it to them. I do assure you it was after Jesus was glorified.
Jesus Appears to His Disciples
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
Good to know John the Baptist wasn't left out....he was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mothers womb.
John the Baptist
Those before the cross like John the Baptist was filled to prepare the way. He was the last one until John chapter 20 besides Jesus.
3 A voice of one calling:
"In the desert prepare
the way for the LORD [Or A voice of one calling in the desert: / "Prepare the way for the LORD ] ;
make straight in the wilderness
a highway for our God. [Hebrew; Septuagint make straight the paths of our God ]
"See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.
John the Baptist Prepares the Way
1In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea 2and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." 3This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.' "[Isaiah 40:3]
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
which were BORN, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD. John first chapter
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your paths ]
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.
The LORD sustains the humble but casts the wicked to the ground.
For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation.
He mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble.
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.