Do you believe......?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Willow 2, Jul 26, 2003.

  1. Willow 2

    Willow 2
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    My question is....Do you believe a person has to be baptized to enter in to heaven?

    And also...do you believe that a person has to partake of the lords supper, to enter in to heaven?
     
  2. Don

    Don
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    No.

    And no.
     
  3. Brother Adam

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    My question is....Do you believe a person has to be baptized to enter in to heaven?

    This is typically seen as the beginning of a Christians walk with Christ beyond any initial prayers. However, there are exceptions where some people have died before they have had a chance to be baptized.

    And also...do you believe that a person has to partake of the lords supper, to enter in to heaven?

    I don't believe Christians must do works, or come to communion to be saved, however, communion, like baptism, is a necessity in a Christians life.
     
  4. WPutnam

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    Yes and no to both questions.

    As for baptism, it is required as a general rule, since the sacrament actually saves. See John 3:5 Where Jesus specifies that "water and spirit" are required to be "born again" or to be "born from above", and 1 Peter 3:21 where he says "baptism, which saves you now."

    Are there exceptions? Strictly speaking, no, but there is something else called the "Baptism of desire" which applied to the thief of the cross whence Jesus declared he would "be with Him in paradise" that same day. It also applies to those who are under instructions prior to baptism but suffer an untimely death. They "desired baptism" this the Lord in His infinite mercy and love, saves the individual as it he/she were actually baptized.
    There is also the "Baptism of blood" such as the early catechumins (under instruction but not yet baptized) endured in martyrdom. This happened frequently in the circus of Rome to the pleasure of brutal emperors.

    Therefore, one could say that all who go to heaven are either baptized by water, by desire or by the blood of martyrdom.

    As for the Eucharist, John 6 is pretty emphatic that "unless you eat the boday and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you will not have life in you" (paraphrased from memory) that pretty well ranks the Eucharist very high in the salvific efforts of the Christian. It is that "spiritual medicine" we need to maintain the condition of "being saved" as we prograss through our Christian walk in this world. But for the infant who is baptized but dies, never having had the Eucharist, the soul is certainly saved. Likewise for the catechumen, under instruction and never having tasted the Eucharist, is saved from a pure heart that only God can see.

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    - Anima Christi -

    Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
    Body of Christ, save me.
    Blood of Christ, inebriate me.
    Water from the side of Christ, wash me.
    Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
    O good Jesus, hear me;
    Within Thy wounds hide me and permit
    me not to be separated from Thee.
    From the Wicked Foe defend me.
    And bid me to come to Thee,
    That with Thy Saints I may praise Thee,
    For ever and ever. Amen.
     
  5. allibobo

    allibobo
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    I can say this when I take the cup of wine and eat the bread I always have tears coming down. I always feel such peace.I also watch my oldest daughter at the Eucharist wondering what is going through her mind and pray she feels peace and know she is loved no matter what.I know some people argue over an infant being baptized and they don't know the meaning etc..My children were baptized a little bit older than infancy.I wanted them to understand the meaning behind it.I was baptized at 6weeks.When I was older I chose to be confirmed .I renewed by baptism covenant and made a mature commitment to christ.
     
  6. Carson Weber

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    Hi Allibobo,

    Speaking in line with the Episcopal tradition, the sacrament of Confirmation is not a renewal of your baptismal covenant or a sort of right of passage into Christian maturity or even the time when one definitively "decides" to choose Christ. Confirmation is a deepening of the grace received at baptism, and it gives the Christian the strength to spread and defend the Christian faith as a prophet after Christ the Prophet. This is the interior grace, which the Apostles and disciples received at Pentecost.

    We renew our baptismal covenant every time that we partake of the covenant sacrifice: the New Covenant Paschal Meal, wherein we partake of Jesus Christ, risen and glorified - body, blood, soul, and divinity. In the Old Testament, covenants were renewed by partaking in the covenant meal/sacrifice, and it is no different in the New Covenant whereby we consume our Paschal sacrifice in the Eucharistic banquet.
     
  7. Don

    Don
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  8. Brother Adam

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    1 Peter 3
    20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[1] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

    Hebrews 11

    7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.


    It seems that faith was given to those who were obedient (faithful) to God.
     
  9. WPutnam

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    Carson saved me the time to look it up and allowing me to do the comparing upon his message.

    Now, please concentrate on the little aside that 1 Peter 3 speaks of when Peter included, "...baptism, which saves you now."

    Hebrews 11:27 says nothing about baptism, which Peter happens to do with a one-liner that gives us the evidence that baptism is a salvific action, not just a symbolic ceremony, so you point is..................????

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+

    Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!
     
  10. Singer

    Singer
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    (W.Putnam)

    Therefore, one could say that all who go to heaven are either baptized
    by water, by desire or by the blood of martyrdom.


    But yet John said there is one who would come after him who would baptize
    with the Holy Ghost. As for me, I skipped the trivial steps.

    Baptism by desire.....covers non Catholics too I'm told.
    They even have a program for Salvation by Desire covering those who
    supposedly Meant to become Catholic but didn't. Maybe that's me
    afterall.!!!
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Don

    Don
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    Hebrews 11:27 says nothing about baptism

    Yep, that's right. Go back and read it again:

    By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house....

    And compare with 1 Peter 3:20
    when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    Just something to think about.
     
  12. WPutnam

    WPutnam
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    Yes, John the Baptist! (The Apostle John may have as well) which fits nicely with John 3:5, where Jesus tells nicodemus that to be "born again," or "born from above," it takes "water and spirit."

    The "Baptism of Desire" or for that matter, including "Baptism of "Blood" if you desire (no pun intended) is another matter.

    Does the ceremony of baptism save an dindividual or not, Singer?

    Yes or no?

    If no, discuss the two scripture quotes I gave.

    If yes, case closed.......... [​IMG]

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!
     
  13. MikeS

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    I'm going off-topic here, but I couldn't let your comments pass by. Since I came back to God and the Church early last year, I haven't attended a single Mass that hasn't brought me to tears. I'm beginning to think it's a permanent situation! It may happen earlier in the Mass, but regardless, it always happens after Holy Communion, as I contemplate the undeserved, unceasing love and self-giving of God, and I rejoice that He has guided me home.
     
  14. Frank

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    Willow:
    The Bible teaches us that Baptism and partaking of the Lord's Supper are commands. Acts 10:48,Mark 16:16, I Cor. 11: 24-26. The Bible says in II Thes. 1:8 that those who obey not the gospel of Christ will have eternal damnation as their outcome for disobedience. Since both Baptism and partaking of the Lord's Supper are commands, which one may you disobey and get to heaven? And, How do you know? The failure to keep the commands shows that we do not love Jesus. John 14:15. Can a person not love Christ and be saved? How do you know? The Bible says Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to ALL them that OBEY him, not disobey him. Hebrews 5:8,9.
     
  15. Don

    Don
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    Frank, if you're gonna use scripture, please use it properly.

    2 Thessalonians 1:8 -- In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

    Not "those that don't obey the gospel", but those that don't know God in the first place and therefore don't obey the gospel.

    If you're saved, you WANT to please Him. You WANT to obey Him.
     
  16. Brother Adam

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    Actually, no I'm saved and there are times when I'd rather not do God's will and sometimes I even don't.
     
  17. cheerfreakus

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    Double No : )
    In Christ Name
    Ashley
     
  18. Don

    Don
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    Actually, no I'm saved and there are times when I'd rather not do God's will and sometimes I even don't. </font>[/QUOTE]Adam, I'd have to agree. It would have been better worded "you DESIRE to please and obey Him."

    Sometimes it's not what we want to do, but it's our desire to obey and please Him that override what we want.
     
  19. Frank

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    Don:

    I would request you follow your own SUGGESTION. The Bible clearly states that one who does NOT OBEY THEE GOSPEL OF CHRIST WILL NOT BE SAVED. Question: can one obey Christ and not obey his gospel? I would love to be entertained by this sort of perverted spin.

    Your line of reasoning is absurd and false. For example, indeed, Hebrews 11:7, does not say anything about baptism, but I Pet. 3:21 says nothing about the ark. This only proves that one must get all of the information before making a rational conclusion. It does not prove baptism is not essential. Furthermore, those in the ark were overwhelmed by water, This is the definition as it appears in the context of new testament baptism for the remission of sins. The ark had water on both sides and above it, It was covered and overwhelmed. Those of Moses baptism walked through on dry ground. Yet, they were baptized. They were baptized in a figure by being overwhelmed by water on both sides and clouds or water above them. THESE ARE FIGURES OR TYPES NOT THE EXACT THING. One today does not have to walk through the Red Sea on dry ground to be baptized by Moses baptism to be saved. One does not have to be in a world wide flood on an ark surrounded by water to be saved. These are pre -figures of the BAPTISM THAT DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US. The word like-figure means a type, not the exact thing. Hebrews 10:1-4, I Cor. 10:1,2.

    Don, by your reasoning, I can prove a number of things save you. However, if I taught it, I would be teaching error. Consider the following:

    1. Repentance saves. Acts 11:18, Luke 13:3. The Bible says absolutely nothing about faith saving in these passages. Do you exclude them? If not, why not?

    2. Confession saves. I John 4:2. The passage says nothing about repentance. Do you exclude it? If not, why not?

    3. Belief saves. John 8:24. The passage does not mention repentance or confesion. Do you exclude them? If not,why not?

    4. Blood saves. Rev. 1:5. The passage says nothing of belief, repentance,confession,and baptism. Do you exclude them? If not, why not?

    5. Baptism. I Pet. 3:21. The Bible says nothing about belief, repentance confession or the blood . Do you exclude them? If not, why not?


    By the way, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to ALL Them that OBEY HIM. HEBREWS 5:8,9. Jesus said you must obey him to be saved eternally. John 3:36. The wise man will obey him,not disobey him. Mat. 7:24. The wise man will be saved. The foolish will perish. Mat. 7:21,22. Proverbs 9:6.
    Have a good day.
     
  20. Tazman

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    My answer is yes to the first question (Mark 16:all, Acts 2:37-40, 1 Peter 3:18-22, Rom 6:all). How do you read these passages?

    To your second question, Is not an issue of salvation. (i.e. Terms of peace with God). I think the question may be in error. Help me out, is there a scripture that the Lord supper is required to come to peace with GOD. It seem through scripture that those who take it are taking it because they are at peace with God in Recognition of Jesus. [​IMG]
     

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