Do you hold to ONLY I right Greek/hebrew text?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Yeshua1, Apr 16, 2013.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    As in just the CT/MT/TR, or are all to you considered to be the word of God?

    same way with hebrew texts?
     
  2. Oldtimer

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    How many more times are you going to start threads with variations of this question?
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    What is your opinion?
     
  4. Van

    Van
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    No version currently available is likely to perfectly represent the original message. However, the CT does represent our best effort at presenting the original message.
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    what i do find interesting is that in the upcoming 28th Nestle edition, the editors have gone back to actually documenting some renderings/variants from the MT/BZT text, so they are acknowledging that the CT does not have ALL of it correct, perhaps!
     
  6. Van

    Van
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    No weasel words needed, the CT is not perfect. But my view is that it is our best effort, superior to the BZT in the majority of cases where they differ.
     
  7. Yeshua1

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    NO "weasling' intended! I hold to the CT being the best available greek text today, but just thought that since even those who assembled it agree that the Bzt has some areas need to take into account how they rendered the text means that NO single text today is 100 % copy of the originals!
     
  8. Greektim

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    First... 28 is not "upcoming". It has been released for a while. And it is only minor changes in some general epistles based on the ECM project.

    Second... Van, what is this "our" best effort. In what way do you identify with the people at UBS or German Bible Society??? Or are you speaking of text critics in general and identifying yourself with them? If the latter, it is still quite a bold claim to put yourself on par with those guys. Do you even know their textual theory (or what its called) to speak of yourself in the 1st person plural with them??? Just wondering.
     
  9. glazer1972

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    This.:BangHead:
     
  10. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    I'm No Expert But....

    While I freely admit I'm no Textual expert and I don't read Greek or Hebrew, I'm still qualified to speak on this subject merely because I have the right to freely express MY OPINION based upon what I have read about this subject (in english of course). My opinion is simply this.....that for any of you CT/MV proponents to say that "the CT is the superior text" based on "superior scholarship" IS MERELY YOUR OPINION. Those of us who have a higher regard for the TR/KJV (based on the evidence we embrace) differ completely with you....and always will.

    Oldtimer....it really doesn't matter how many similar threads Yeshua1 posts on this topic....The KJV'ers on this board will always believe the same about it. It is kinda pointless...unless he is just trying to inflate his post-count or something.:rolleyes:

    Bro.Greg:saint:
     
    #10 Gregory Perry Sr., Apr 16, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2013
  11. Greektim

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    So are you saying there is no objective way to study these textual matters for ourselves or even to examine if these scholars are in fact superior? We have nothing to offer but opinion???
     
  12. Oldtimer

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    In this context, it is all OPINION. Differing opinions.

    Differing opinions based on individual viewpoints arrived at through life experiences. Whether educational, spiritual, or any other avenue taken to arrive at an opinion.

    We do not have the original copy of the 10 Commandments from the hand of God. Moses shattered the stones. We do not have the copy Moses made. Nor anything else, to hold in our hand, that was actually penned by Moses. Nor from any of the authors of the writings deemed to be the Bible.

    Further, if God had preserved all of these in a museum for all to see, there would still be differing opinions. Select any manuscript that you wish from those chosen to be included in any version of the Bible. Do all of those studing that manuscript agree 100% upon its content? Do all of those holding a fist full of degrees and years of experience in their field totally agree? When they don't (show me if that's not the case) agree, then all each has to offer is his or her OPINION.

    The only thing that you can offer is your OPINION. The only thing I can offer is my OPINION. Neither of us has any way to ABSOLUTELY prove that our opinion is based in fact.

    I prefer the King James Bible. That is my OPINION, based on many reasons, including the sources used by the translators. Anything that you say in opposition to my preference, is only your opinion. Yes, I'm a simple layman and still have much to learn. However, one thing I have learned is that using opinions of others as an debate point can be countered by those with a differing opinion. It's an interesting and on-going study of how those opinions come into being -- both sides of this issue.

    Scholars have nothing to offer except their OPINIONS.

    I'm equally free to accept or reject individual and "collective" opinions as the Holy Spirit leads.

    Once again, two of my favorite passages from the Bible come to mind.
    Proverbs 2:3-6 and 2 Tim 2:15 KJB versions.

    The only thing I can offer is my opinion. Thank God, He gave us the capability to form opinions and the ability to accept or reject those formed by others.
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    Their work of trying to reconstruct the original text as close as possible is extremely technical, and know for sure that I am NOT qualified to even begin to critique their work, but also know that many sincere scholars divide over issue of wether the CT/MT reflect the originals the best, but glad that few would reflect view of the KJVO that hte TR does it the best!

    How can one be into KJVO an djust have an opinion of which text refelcts the originals the best, yet be si sure the KJV reflects it perfectly?
     
  14. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    Yes!!!

    Great Post Oldtimer!!! It is refreshing to know that there is at least one reasonable and objective person here (though I KNOW there are others) that GETS IT! Thank You. I respect you and your demeanor here.

    Bro.Greg:saint:
     
  15. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    Not At All....


    GT.....I'm not suggesting anything other than the fact that we are all just rendering our OPINIONS of the subject matter. Opinions can be either "objective" or "subjective" things depending on the intent of the person offering them. Beyond the matter of this topic being subject to the opinions offered on each side of the issue is something else that must be dealt with....the beginning "assumption" upon which each side forms their opinions.
    Our "side" (TR/KJV) bases our opinions and conclusions on the matter on an opening assumption that there are NO mistakes, errors, or mis-translations in our KJVs.

    As I see things, your "side"(CT/MV) bases YOUR opinions and conclusions on the matter on just the opposite assumption.....and that is that there are NO perfect or error-free translations (even the ones you say are most accurate AND the KJV) and that THEY ALL have mistakes, errors, and mis-translations in them.

    Our opening assumption PRESUMES upon not only God's divine and supernatural act of Original Inspiration (with which I presume you would agree with) but.......also His continued work of divine and supernatural protection and PRESERVATION of His Holy Word (which He magnifies ABOVE His name) (Psalm 138:2) from the day it was first penned on earth until and beyond the present day. In our day the work of preservation would apply to languages other than English.

    God and I are at peace with each other about this matter. I asked Him years ago to lead, guide, and show me His TRUTH for HIS sake, honor and glory. I'm thankful He did.

    Bro.Greg:saint:
     
  16. Greektim

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    You don't happen to speak more than one language do you? That would affect your view drastically.

    BTW... your last statement sounds like you received extra-KJV revelation on the issue. Is that a correct understanding?
     
  17. Van

    Van
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    Pitchback

    Our refers to all the brothers and sisters in Christ. We are seekers of truth. No need to attempt to disparage and belittle me by insinuating I claim some sort of expertize. I do not. But I hold a position on which underlying text most closely reflects the original, and it is the CT.

    You seem to think to hold an opinion on textual validity and the methods best suited to discern which variant is probably closest to the original, requires a secret handshake and a membership in the "we are so special" academic community. Christ would view your behavior as factious.

    BTW, I did read Dr. Wallace's bit on the NA28 with the prediction for further review of additional books.
     
  18. Greektim

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    Maybe didn't read carefully... I said "just wondering". And it did come off as a bit pompous b/c I know somewhat the level of scholarship it takes to do what they do. So I am even a bit timid in putting myself categorically with them so as not to disparage them.

    And as far as my opinion (hard to say b/c your original post was worded strangely; maybe you will edit it later) on textual matters, I state my opinion in my siggie. I follow a Sturzian type of textual criticism realizing the coherence-genealogical method would seem to foist that view somewhat. And I also acknowledge that the special academic community is necessary b/c of the complexity of the textual situation and the science that it entails. In comparison, we are but simpletons engaging in a very simplified model when we do textual criticism. The process is far more complex than it is often perceived or conveyed.

    Please don't be offended. I am just cautioning you to give credit where credit is due and consider your words a bit more carefully.
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    I keep coming back to how can we be able to discuss just why the CT is superior, or less than either TR/MT, when in order to be qualified to make those assumptions, requires vast learning and training?

    In the end, isn't it still basedupon relying upon the "experts" in this field?
     
  20. Van

    Van
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    All of us stand on the shoulders of others. Factious is as factious does.

    Rather than suggest I need to be more careful, perhaps others need to stop assuming the fault lies in others, rather than themselves.

    You assumed I was claiming expertize, when none was claimed. Perhaps because one blowhard after another makes the charge. Go figure.
     

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