Do you see A Difference between Inerrancy/Infallibility?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Yeshua1, Mar 22, 2013.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    i was taught that Inerrancy ONLY applied to the originals, and that versions today of the bible such as KJV/Nasb/Niv etc would be infallible!

    Do the KJVO group confuse the two terms?
     
  2. go2church

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    Inerrancy is always confused. Whenever someone uses the term I always ask that they define it before the conversation continues. Don't even use the term any more.
     
  3. Winman

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    You answer your own question. You say "I was taught that inerrancy only applied to the originals".

    That is how YOU were taught. Not everyone is taught the same. Those of us who are King James only believe it is inerrant.

    Source- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy

    I personally believe that the Bible declares itself to be inerrant. You may disagree, and that is your right. It is my right to believe it was preserved inerrant.
     
    #3 Winman, Mar 22, 2013
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  4. franklinmonroe

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    Inerrancy means "without error"; infallible means "incapable of being fallible". This is simply how I define these terms.

    INFALLIBILITY: It is possible that a book could have an error and yet still be infallible. Error does not cause fallibility. That is, a technical error may not necessarily cause any or all true teachings to become false; of course, a very simple error (such as an absent "not") could indeed cause a serious falsehood. Casual mistakes (say, printer's error) do not really falsify true doctrine, but only delay it's communication. No human book of significant length and substance is infallible; only a book of divine origin could positively be infallible. It is also possible that a book could be completely fallible and yet contain no errors of fact or mistakes of publication; think of improper interpretations or erroneous conclusions drawn from pure sources.

    A book with an error may or may not be considered inerrant depending what is considered a legitimate "error".
     
    #4 franklinmonroe, Mar 22, 2013
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  5. Yeshua1

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    yes, for ANY translation of the bible today, even ole kjv, has some 'errors" in it, due to scribal mistakes, inserting notes, corrupted numbers in OT texts etc!

    So still infallible, but originals alone inerrant!
     
  6. Winman

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    Where are there errors in the King James Bible? Please show them to me.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Yes, the ORIGINALS were fully inerrant, but versions today are infallible, some minor errors in them due to scribal inserts/copying notes, problems in OT numbering etc!
     
  8. jonathan.borland

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    Here's a pretty good one:

    2Kings 24:8 ¶ Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother’s name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

    2Chr. 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    In Acts, wasn't the feast called easter?
     
  10. Winman

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    How do you know this is an error? I acknowledge there are many "supposed" errors or contradictions in the scriptures, but that does not prove they are errors at all. It may simply be that we do not know all the facts. I will admit that I believe by faith that the KJB does not contain any errors.

    That said, there have been scholars who have studied all the so-called "errors" or contradictions in scripture and have provided possible answers. Here is the answer I found concerning these scriptures.

    It is quite possible that one of these explanations is correct. It is also possible that some other explanation is the answer.

    But I believe by faith that God has preserved his words without errors. You may disagree, but I believe Psalm 12 promises this.

    Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
    7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

    I believe the word "pure" is synonymous with inerrant. I am completely aware that many folks do not agree with my interpretation of these scriptures, but that is what I believe.

    But just because there are scriptures that are difficult to reconcile with others does not mean they are error. There are many possible answers to these apparent problems.
     
  11. jonathan.borland

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    Winman,

    Your first solution requires the abandonment of the plain meaning of words and grammar, and in fact we can never be sure of the beginning of any king's reign according to the biblical authors. The second solution contradicts itself, since the time of reign is the same in both accounts. The third solution is inadmissible, since the grammar of both is the same, and if the same grammar has completely opposite meanings then words don't mean anything.

    Far better to account for the extraneous "ten days" as an ancient scribal assimilation of the "teen" at the end of a line into the "ten days" of the next line where it stands in that account. This single solution accounts for both discrepancies and is thus to be preferred.
     
  12. franklinmonroe

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  13. Logos1560

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    errors in 1611 KJV

    The first rule for the making of the translation printed in 1611 stated: “The ordinary Bible read in the church, commonly called the Bishops’ Bible, to be followed, and as little altered as the original will permit.”

    How is it possible that those errors in the 1602 Bishops' Bible were not noticed by the translators of the KJV and evidently were not corrected since they are also found in the 1611 edition of the KJV?

    Here are examples of those uncorrected errors that are found in the 1611 KJV, kept from the 1602 edition of the Bishops' Bible.


    1 Kings 8:61 [Lord our God--1560 Geneva, 1568 Bishops; Lord your God--1602 Bishops] [see 1 Kings 8:59]
    LORD your God {1611, 1613, 1614, 1616, 1617, 1634, 1640, 1644 London} (1843 AFBS)
    LORD our God (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1629, 1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    1 Kings 11:5 [Ammonites--1560 Geneva, 1568 Bishops; Amorites--1602 Bishops]
    Amorites {1611, 1613, 1614, 1616, 1617, 1634, 1640, 1644 London}
    Ammonites (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1629, 1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    The Hebrew word at 1 Kings 11:5 is the Hebrew word translated "Ammorities" in the 1611 Holy Bible [KJV] in all other places, and it is not the same Hebrew word that is translated "Amorites" in the 1611 KJV in other verses.

    2 Kings 11:10 [house of the Lord--1560 Geneva; the temple--1602 Bishops]
    the Temple {1611, 1613, 1614, 1616, 1617, 1634 London} (1843 AFBS)
    the temple (1675 Oxford) [1629, 1637, 1817, 2005, 2011 Cambridge] {1640, 1644, 1672 London} (1638 Edinburgh) (1816 Albany) (1818 Holbrook) (1827 Smith) (1828 MH) (1832 PSE) (1854 Harding) (2006 PENG)
    the temple of the Lord {1795 London} (1897 Mackail)
    the temple of the LORD (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1638, 1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    At 2 Kings 11:10, the preserved Scriptures in the original languages have the Hebrew word that is translated "Jehovah" or "LORD" at other places in the 1611 KJV. That name is omitted in the 1602 Bishops' Bible and the 1611 edition of the KJV.

    2 Kings 24:19 [Jehoiakim--1560 Geneva; Joachin--1602 Bishops]
    Jehoiackin (1813, 1815 Carey)
    Jehoiachin [1817 Cambridge] {1611, 1613, 1614, 1616, 1634, 1640, 1644 London} (1816 Albany) (1818 Holbrook) (1827 Smith) (1832 PSE) (1843 AFBS) (1854 Harding)
    Jehoiakim (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1629, 1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    The Hebrew name at 2 Kings 24:19 translated "Jehoiachin" in the 1602 Bishops' and the 1611 KJV is not the Hebrew name translated "Jehoiachin" in other verses in the KJV. The Hebrew name at 2 Kings 24:19 is the same Hebrew name translated "Jehoiakim" at other verses in the 1611 KJV.

    Genesis 47:6 [men--1560 Geneva; man--1602 Bishops]
    any man (1675, 1679, 1709, 1715, 1720, 1728, 1747, 1754, 1758, 1765 Oxford) [1629, 1637, 1638, 1683 Cambridge] {1611, 1613, 1614, 1616, 1617, 1640, 1644, 1660, 1672, 1684, 1705, 1711, 1735, 1741, 1747, 1750, 1772 London} (1755 Oxon) (1638, 1722, 1756, 1760, 1764, 1766 Edinburgh) (1762 Dublin) (1700 MP) (1746 Leipzig) (1782 Aitken) (1843 AFBS)
    any man [1873 Cambridge] (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    any men (1768, 1968 Oxford) [1762, 1763B, 2005, 2011 Cambridge] {1759, 1760, 1763, 1764, 1767, 1795 London} (1769 Edinburgh) (1810, 1832, 1835 Scott) (EB) (2006 PENG) (2011 PJB) (NCE)
    any men (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1743, 1747, 1768, 1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    At Genesis 47:6, the Hebrew word translated "man" in the 1611 is plural in number. The singular form "man" would also not agree with the later plural pronoun "them" that follows and refers back to it.

    2 Samuel 12:22 [see Gen. 6:5, 2 Chron. 28:11, Isaiah 49:13] [God--1602 Bishops]
    God (1675, 1679, 1709, 1715, 1720, 1728, 1747, 1754, 1758, 1762, 1765, 1768, 1769, 1770, 1771, 1772, 1773, 1774, 1777, 1778, 1782, 1783, 1784, 1787, 1788, 1791, 1792, 1795, 1795e, 1798, 1799, 1800, 1803, 1804, 1810, 1812, 1819, 1821, 1823, 1828, 1830 Oxford) [1629, 1637, 1638, 1683, 1743, 1747, 1756, 1760, 1762, 1763B, 1765, 1767, 1768, 1769, 1773, 1778, 1790, 1795, 1800, 1817, 1822, 1824, 1833 Cambridge] {1611, 1613, 1614, 1616, 1617, 1634, 1640, 1660, 1672, 1684, 1705, 1711, 1735, 1741, 1747, 1750, 1759, 1760, 1763, 1764, 1767, 1772, 1795, 1813, 1817, 1824, 1825 London} (1755 Oxon) (1638, 1722, 1756, 1760, 1764, 1766, 1787, 1789, 1791, 1793, 1802, 1810, 1820, 1842, 1851, 1858 Edinburgh) (1762 Dublin) (1700 MP) (1746 Leipzig) (1782 Aitken) (1785 Wilson) (1791 Collins) (1791 Thomas) (1801 Hopkins) (1802, 1813, 1815 Carey) (1803 Etheridge) (1807, 1813 Johnson) (1808, 1828 MH) (1809, 1810, 1818, 1826, 1828 Boston) (1815 Walpole) (1816 Albany) (1818 Holbrook) (1818, 1819, 1829, 1843, 1851, 1954 ABS) (1827 Smith) (1831 Brown) (1832 PSE) (1832, 1835 Scott) (1836 Hartford) (1843, 1856 AFBS) (1843 Robinson) (1846 Portland) (1845, 1854, 1876 Harding) (1853 Butler) (1859 RTS) (1897 Mackail) (1924, 1958 Hertel) (CSB) (WMCRB) (VB) (1987 Dugan) (1989, 2003 TN) (1991, 2008 AMG) (KJVCB) (Life) (2008 Pilot) (2010 BRO) (APB) (HMSB) (1833 WEB) (1842 Bernard)
    GOD (1829 Oxford, SRB, SSB, Oxford Classic, NPB) [CCR, CSTE, DKJB]

    Genesis 6:5 [1611 kept “God” from 1602 Bishops; see also 2 Samuel 12:22, 2 Chronicles 28:11, Isaiah 49:13] [the Lord--1560 Geneva] [the LORD--NKJV]
    JEHOVAH (1842 Bernard)
    God (1679, 1770, 1771, 1772, 1773, 1777, 1778, 1782, 1783, 1784, 1788, 1791, 1792, 1795e, 1798, 1799, 1800, 1803, 1810, 1812, 1928 Oxford, 1952 PE, SSB Oxford) [1743, 1747, 1756, 1760, 1765, 1767, 1768, 1769, 1773, 1778, 1795, 1800, 1817, 1822, 1824, 2005 Cambridge, 2011 Transetto Text] {1611, 1613, 1614, 1616, 1617, 1634, 1640, 1644, 1660, 1684, 1750, 1795, 1824 London} (1722, 1756, 1760, 1764, 1766, 1769, 1787, 1789, 1791, 1858 Edinburgh) (1762 Dublin) (1700 MP) (1782 Aitken) (1785 Wilson) (1791 Collins) (1791 Thomas) (1801 Hopkins) (1802, 1813, 1815 Carey) (1803 Etheridge) (1807, 1813 Johnson) (1809, 1810, 1818, 1828 Boston) (1810, 1832, 1835 Scott) (1815 Walpole) (1816 Albany) (1818 Holbrook) (Clarke) (1827 Smith) (1831 Brown) (1832 PSE) (1833 MH) (1843, 1856 AFBS) (1846 Portland) (1845, 1854, 1857, 1876 Harding) (1859 RTS) (1876 Porter) (1895, 1997 NPC) (1897 Mackail) (1923 NIB) (1924, 1958 Hertel) (1954 ABS) (1966 SC) (1968 Royal) (1972, 1976, 1987, 1989 TN) (1973 REG) (1975, 1985, 1990 Open) (1976 BH) (1975, 1978 GID) (CSB) (Nave’s) (RRB) (WMCRB) (LASB) (1991, 2012 FWP) (1984 AMG) (VB) (JVIPB) (EB) (RSB) (SFCB) (2008 Pilot) (2010 BEAMS) (2010 BRO) (APB) (2011 PJB) (2012 F-S) (HKJVSB) (1833 WEB)
    GOD (1715, 1768, 1769 Oxford, SRB, Oxford Classic, NPB) [1629, 1637, 1638 Cambridge, CSTE, DKJB] {1672, 1711, 1760, 1763, 1817 London}
     
  14. Winman

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    First, showing multiple dates does nothing to convince anybody, in fact, it robs from your argument. Remember KISS (keep it simple STUPID).

    Simply explain how these are errors (without all the dates). The fact that certain printings of the KJB (or any version) contain errors does not prove the translation is an error. In fact, the fact that errors are spotted and corrected shows that the correct translation was known. You are going to get all sorts of errors over time with hundreds of printings being done that are spotted and corrected, this does not prove the KJB is not inerrant at all, in fact, it supports that it is. That may not make sense to you, but think about it awhile.
     
    #14 Winman, Mar 24, 2013
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  15. jbh28

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    Logos, you went over Winmans head here. or actually winman didn't like fact being presented, so he just said it was too complex.

    Winman, writing the wrong word is an incorrect translation. Fixing it later shows that they spotted the error. But it was an error. No where in the Bible does it say that English translators would be kept from error.
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

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    :laugh:Well young man.....you are back & with moxie! VERY GOOD! Welcome back. :thumbs:
     
  17. Winman

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    Not so. There have been famous versions of the King James with mistakes in it such as the "Murderers Bible" that misspelled "murmurers" in Jude 16 to say "murderers". This error was spotted and corrected, because it was known that the correct word is murmurers.

    It's not that the translators made a mistake in the translation, it is that the printers made a typographical error. Because the correct word was known, the error was spotted and corrected.

    You cannot distinguish between an error made by the translators versus a mistake made by the printers. There have been numerous mistakes and errors made by printers of all versions of the Bible. That has nothing to do with whether the translation is correct or not. This type of argument is a fallacy, only naive people would be fooled by it.

    Now, if you can't understand this, I don't know what to tell you. And this is the kind of mistake Logos is trying to point out. Printing "yours" instead of "ours" is a typo mistake made by the printers, not the translators.
     
  18. Logos1560

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    Are you in effect contradicting yourself as you say that you cannot distinguish between an error made by the translatorrs versus an error made by the printers while trying to blame all the errors in the 1611 edition of the KJV on the printers? According to your own statement, you do not know that the errors in the 1611 edition were not the responsibility of the translators. Are you merely speculating that the KJV translators could not have made the errors? Are you trying to make the printers the scapegoats for all the errors in the 1611 edition?

    One reason I picked the examples that I do was the fact that they were found in the earlier 1602 edition of the Bishops' Bible. Since these errors were in the earlier 1602 Bishops' Bible, the 1611 printers did not introduce them, and it can reasonably be expected that the KJV translators should have made sure that they were corrected. Therefore, it would have been the responsibility of the KJV translators to make sure that the printers corrected them if the translators had spotted or noticed them. Archbishop Richard Bancroft, overseer of the making of the KJV, and some of the KJV translators in their positions of authority in the Church of England had control over printing and power of censorship so that they could demand that printers follow their instructions.

    If those errors in the 1602 Bishops' Bible had been spotted and corrected by the KJV translators and the printers failed to follow the correction, the KJV translators would have been expected to make sure that they were corrected in the very next edition in 1613 [they weren't].

    One of the example errors I listed was not corrected until 1743 (Gen. 47:6), and another was not corrected until 1829 (2 Sam. 12:22).
     
  19. Logos1560

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    You did not and have not proven that the errors in the 1611 edition of the KJV that I pointed out were definitely the fault of the 1611 printers.

    Therefore, you did not prove any mistake in what I pointed out.
     
  20. Winman

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    You are the one claiming they are mistakes, I do not believe the KJB has any mistakes. It is your duty to prove that the translators made a mistake.

    The fact that these errors were spotted and corrected argues that the correct translation was known.

    Printing was very primitive when the 1611 was first printed, and the Bible is a monumental work. It sometimes took years before typos were spotted and corrected, and sometimes many printings contained an error. But in time these errors were spotted and corrected. This does not reflect upon the translation whatsoever, and I think you KNOW that. It is a false, even dishonest form of argument.
     

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