Do you think Pharaoh being hardened is a foreshadowing of Israel?

They were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and positionally have always been His child, from the womb. They're given the power to become His child practically when they recieve Him (profession, Jn 1:12)

Somewhere along the way, PRIOR to profession, they were "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (v 13)

Paul is essentially describing the Ephesians from their prior bondage to idol worship and self gratification. But thank God:

who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; Col 1:13

“All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts.” I would think that would be a good description of a 'lost sheep'.

 

If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk. Gal 5:25

Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened.... 1 Cor 5:7

I don't know why the idea of positionally vs practically would seem odd to you. We have been reconciled, done deal, now it's our duty to be reconciled to Him.

 

Interesting!

I have never heard anything saying that the elect are "potentially already" saved by God before they are evn born!

is this like "high Calvinism" as contrasted to more moderate strand?

 

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1719702#post1719702

 

So you are saying that God foreordianed our salvation on the basis of JUST His good pleasure and will , and that we were already saved in His mind, and that became reality to us when we believed?

 

You profess to be a Calvinist and you DON'T believe that?

[edit] The free gift of eternal life is not given to us because of our belief; we believe because we have been given the free gift of eternal life.

 

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Eph. 1:3-5

 

And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Was the hardening of Esau "judicial"?

 

I believe that God elected/chose me in jesus to be saved, by act of His divine will and mercy, that he enabled me to be able to respond in faith to Gospel, and that he had me wriiten in Book of Life before I was even born, and that I 'confirmed" my election when jesus saved me...

is that considered to be calvinist?

 

FYI / FWIW, it is consistent throughout the scriptures that it's actually the second born that obtains the favor of God, not the firstborn, i.e., Cain/Abel, Shem/Japheth, Ishmael/Isaac, Essau/Jacob, Mannassah/Ephraim, First/Second Wilderness Generations, Saul/David, First Covenant/Second Covenant, First Man Adam/Second Adam (and doubtless many others):

It was not Cain's sacrifice that God had respect for, but it was Abel's; 'Cain was of the evil one, and slew his brother....Because his works were evil, and his brother`s righteous.' [1 Jn 3:12]

Shem was the elder brother of Japheth, but, 'God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem...' [Gen 10:21 ASV & 9:27]

It was Ishmael, the firstborn, that was born after the flesh, and he persecuted Isaac, the second born, that was born after the Spirit. Isaac was the child of promise; Ishmael was cast out. [Gal 4:29]

It was said of Esau and Jacob, 'The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' [Ro 9:12,13]

It was not Leah his first wife that Jacob loved, but it was Rachel his second wife. [Gen 29:30,31]

It was Ephraim the younger that Jacob blessed over his older brother Mannassah and in spite of Joseph's objections. [Gen 48:13-20]

It was not the first generation of the exodus that entered into the rest of the promised land, it was the second generation; 'But your little ones, that ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have rejected.' [Nu 14:31]

It was not Saul the first king of Israel that would do all of God's will, but it was the second king David that was a man after His heart; '...Saul the son of Kish...when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king; to whom also he bare witness and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who shall do all My will.' [Acts 13:21,22]

It was not the first covenant of the law ( I desire mercy, and not sacrifice) that God had pleasure in, but it was the second covenant of grace; '....a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.' [Heb 8:6,7]

Consider 'the first man Adam' vs. 'the last Adam, ' ... that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven.' [1 Cor 15:45-47]

 

You're kidding, right? Why do you think Esau and Pharoah are mentioned in this passage?

 

I was talking to JF.

 

Not my quote though, was it?

 

It says "Originally posted by JesusFan . . ."

 

Where do you get this common vs noble use stuff? They weren't given different jobs. It's saying that before either were born, before either had done good or evil, while there was nothing to commend one above the other, one person was chosen and the other person was rejected.

You're saying Pharoah was hardened because he deserved to be hardened. Paul is saying Pharoah was chosen to be hardened on the same basis that Esau was rejected. Paul relates the passages because the subject is the election of God, not the supposed worthiness of the individual.

Your judicial hardening theories are bunk.

 

Think both the Apostle John and Jesus would say that the Jewish peoples of that time, just like today, were spiritually "blind" to Messiah on the whole, as being dead in their sins/depraved/ etc...

God did preserve/elect out from them His "faithful" remnant at that time, and in each following generation, there will be 'some" jews who see the light and come to Jesus the Messiah!

So not really "Judicially hardening" as they were dead in sin, in the dark, and the faithful remnant by act of divine Grace were saved!