Doctrinal Defintions of Faith

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Nov 15, 2007.

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  1. skypair

    skypair
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    I was reading a book on doctrine the other night that kinda reverses the Cal notion of faith in general and in "efficacioius" calling.

    It posits that faith is of 2 kinds: 1) in general and 2) in particular.

    Under general, we learn that man must know, assent to, and appropriate truth before he can be saved.
    This is the "faith" that I have always insisted is "belief" or "hope" if y'all recall my apologetics on that. That the convicting knowledge of Christ is understood logically and emotionally causing a change in the will of man leading to repentance.

    Under this model, you can see where "belief in vain" might be having knowledge and assenting to it without apporpriating it, right?

    Then God grants saving faith to those who apporpriate what they know, belief that has "evidence" and "substance" in the Holy Spirit.

    The other kind of faith, according to the author, is faith in particular. It is faith in the name of God, the Person and work of Christ, in the word and promises of God, and in prayer. These come from our living relationship with God and His dealing in our lives with various proofs of His words and promises.

    This paradigm 1) makes sense and 2) allows that ALL are capable of receiving saving faith. I believe it answers to the question Cal's ask -- "Why, given the same preaching, do some get saved and others not?" It's not the call that is "efficacious" --- it's the response of the hearer that determines the outcome.

    skypair
     
  2. reformedbeliever

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    No, it still does not answer the question. You state that it is because of the response... but why do some respond positively and others do not? Are some smarter? More wise? More informed? Less of sinners? More sinful? I can see it now.......... I'm so glad God that I was more sinful than that measly little sinner. :laugh:
     
  3. psalms109:31

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    Love God

    I had a relationship with God all my life.

    It wasn't until I was 11 that a continue preaching around me of the same message that I finally come to Jesus.

    I started off with a simple that God loved the world me which I understood and I loved Him back, the other part of Jesus didn't mean anything to me, but I loved God because He loved me. I was around 5 or so then.

    I came to Jesus when I realized that loving God wasn't enough my sin had to be delt with.

    The old roman road brought me to Christ that day. Knowing He was the only one who can save me.

    When we start being the body that God calls us to be we will see a revival again like the days of act.

    Our faith is that God loved the world that He sent His Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. That God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, and we must come to Jesus as a child.

    Until those of us are called become one we will never change the world, for others to see are good deeds and praise our Father in heaven.

    As long as we disagree with one scripture or change or milipulate scripture to suite our need we will not become one.

    If we have to tear down our precious building and rebuild then we have to. The only thing that you cannot rebuild is the scripture.

    If God is sovreign then The Holy Bible translation is just the way He wanted it.
     
    #3 psalms109:31, Nov 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2007
  4. skypair

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    It comes down to a) Knowing the facts, b) Assenting to the facts, and c) Appropriating the truth to oneself. So the one knew, assented, and appropriated while the other was missing one of those things.

    The OP answered that. I hope it is not a concept that is over your head. :laugh:

    skypair
     
  5. skypair

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    Precious testimony, psalms! :applause: If I might add, I can see the "knowledge, assent, and appropriation" there that my OP spoke of.

    Yes, it's "back to the basics," right? Who was the Christ of our salvation? Did we "know, assent, and appropriate" Calvinism or Jesus Christ when we were saved?

    skypair
     
  6. reformedbeliever

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    a. knowing the facts. So some are lost because they don't know the facts or are not as wise as some.

    b. What about those who never get to hear the facts? But those that do and assent to the facts can be proud of themselves huh? They were a little smarter?

    c. What about those who never hear the truth? The fact is that the vast majority of this world has never heard of Jesus Christ. What about them? How can they appropriate the truth? Is there another way other than Jesus?

    d. Your argument falls apart.
     
  7. reformedbeliever

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    All the op states is that some choose. You state that they get the facts, assent to them, and appropriate the truth to oneself. You still have not given the reason why.
    You keep answering "because they did" instead of answering why they did.

    The credit belongs to God, not man.
     
  8. webdog

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    Hows this for facts. God is known through creation and the Law is written on all men's hearts (Romans 1). All men are created with the desire for immortality (Ecc. 3:11). Christ draws all men to Him (John12:32). Those should be more than sufficient to go on. Even if #3 is not correct, which is foolish because it's Scripture, God is more than just in condemning based on #1 and #2. If those two basic truths that a child can grasp are rejected, why would they accept anything else?
    *SIGH* Every man is given a measure of faith, and everyone is presented with some truth (see first reply). What man does with the truth is what man is judged on.
    Amazing you are still holding on to this unproveable notion.
    In this regard, Skypair's argument stands, and the calvinist rebuttal is what falls short.
     
  9. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    No rest for the weary

    God created the most highly mobile temple, there is no place we can't go.

    Micah 5:4
    He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God. And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth.

    Acts 1:8
    But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
     
  10. skypair

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    You left this out --- your sarcasm smacks of self-pride and self-satisfaction. That's gonna stunt your growth, young man.

    I'm glad webdog came along to answer you. See his post.

    skypair
     
  11. EdSutton

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    How about this for a really 'unique' doctrinal definition of faith?
    or as the HCSB renders this, perhaps best of all, with the excplanatory notes
    1. Definitely a really 'unique' doctrinal definition. :rolleyes:
    Ed
     
    #11 EdSutton, Nov 16, 2007
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  12. Lou Martuneac

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    MacArthur's Defintion of Faith

    This is JohnMacArthur's defintion of faith,

    That kind of faith is a faith that frustrates grace (Gal 2:21).


    LM
     
  13. webdog

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    I agree, hence the problem with Lordship Salvation.
     
  14. EdSutton

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    I say this same thing slightly differently from Lou Martuneac, here. I'll just say this (position of John MacArthur) is "another gospel", and call it for what it is, in a different Biblical phrase. (Gal. 1:8-9)

    Ed
     
    #14 EdSutton, Nov 16, 2007
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  15. JustChristian

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    Grace is not frustrated by making Christ Lord of our lives. It is fullfilled. Christ said to Nicademus Ye must be born again. To me that means that sin and the world must no longer be master of out lives but Christ must be Master. To accept grace and live as though nothing has happened is to make a mockery of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. As Paul said in Romans 6:

    Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
    Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
    Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
     
  16. webdog

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    You need to look into Lordship Salavation a little closer, as it does frustrate grace, requiring front loaded sanctification prior to justification.
     
  17. psalms109:31

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    doubt

    James 1:
    2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.

    John 20:24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
    But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

    26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

    28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

    29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

    30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[Some manuscripts may continue to] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    It is so hard to tell those in doubt to stop doubting and believe.

    He is a good example of faith.


    29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
     
  18. skypair

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    Here's one "Faith is the substance of things believed and the evidence of things hoped for" -- Dr Jim ____ (of Houston, TX - need help).

    Belief becomes faith when we receive the Holy Spirit indwelling and it becomes evidence because we have former faith in God's promises.

    skypair
     
  19. skypair

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    Yet "baby Christian" do it all the time. They only knew one thing --- they needed Christ do save them.

    I was one of those. I didn't know (in high school) all that Christ wanted my to commit. He had to show me -- career, denomination, spouse, home, kids, politics, etc. There is NO "mockery" in coming as a child to Christ, BB! Just realize that God loves you and died for you and will live through you if you will receive Him!

    skypair
     
  20. JustChristian

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    Sorry, you're confused and wrong about this. Go back to the Bible.
     
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