Doctrine of Sinless Perfection

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by IfbReformer, Apr 25, 2005.

  1. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer
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    Does anyone on this board believe in the Doctrine of Sinless Perfection?

    I doubt most people will say yes.

    But then it comes down to some important practical questions if you reject the possibilty of a believer becoming perfect in these unglorified bodies:

    1.If you say no to this doctrine, are you admitting that you still sin, even after being saved?(Yes or No - please, then you can explain)


    2.Do you sin less than before you were saved?
    (Yes or No - please, then you can explain)


    3.If you admit you still sin, why do you still sin?


    Then the biggie questions:

    4.If you still sin how does this affect your relationship with God?


    5.How does sin in the life a believer affect one's eternal salvation - or does it have any affect at all?


    IFBReformer
     
  2. Paul of Eugene

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    Sinless life is like perfection in any human area. A target to reach, but unattainable in the absolute sense by mortal man.
     
  3. Watchman

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    We will, until called home, drag around this old, sinful, nature. There is no way to improve it, So I would say I do not believe in that. Ideal? Yes, but I must look at reality.
     
  4. Shiloh

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    Reformer, let me ask you a question. Do you believe you were born without sin?
     
  5. Soulman

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    Posted by IFBreformer: 1.If you say no to this doctrine, are you admitting that you still sin, even after being saved?(Yes or No - please, then you can explain)

    I don't believe it is possible to be without sin in this life. We live in cursed bodies. God doesn't want us to sin but when we do:

    1 John 2:1
    My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    We have the tools to never sin again. We are the temple of God. The Holy Spirit is within us. We have access to the Father at anytime. But as much as we don't want to sin, we do. Impure thought, unrighteous anger, wrong knee jerk reactions, secret sin.

    Jesus tells us to come as we are. We can repent and be saved. Then we realize that although we have had a change of heart, our flesh still lusts for sin. Our flesh is evil.

    Posted by IFBreformer: 2.Do you sin less than before you were saved?(Yes or No - please, then you can explain)

    Yes. When I am tempted I have a choice to make. I didn't have that choice prior to salvation. If I choose not to sin the Holy Spirit gives me the strength.

    Posted by IFBreformer: 3.If you admit you still sin, why do you still sin?

    The reality is that we love our sin. We refuse for years to turn certain things over to God. We legitimize them. Also it is often unexpected. Impure thoughts etc.

    Posted by IFBreformer: 4.If you still sin how does this affect your relationship with God?

    We can greive the Holy Spirit. Although He lives in us we can quench Him. God knows our heart. He knows if we love Him or not. No one aside from Christ has ever lived a sinless life. If you could it would mean that salvation is maintained by works.

    Posted by IFBreformer: 5.How does sin in the life a believer affect one's eternal salvation - or does it have any affect at all?

    It effects our walk as a believer and our rewards. It doesn't effect our salvation. We couldn't do anything to earn salvation. We can't do anything to lose it. It is a gift.
     
  6. David Michael Harris

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    Answer is no.

    We will always have the potential to sin in this life. We strive to live a life free from sin.

    Jesus sets us free from sin, but as Peter says, "desires, that wage war against your soul" We will always have a conflict to battle with.

    God looks at us and sees Christ's Righteousness.

    A believers life is hidden with Christ in God.

    And if a Christian falls into sin, he has an Advocate before God.

    David
     
  7. Craigbythesea

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    1 John 3:7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
    8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
    9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

    1 Cor. 10:13. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

    Rom. 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
    2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
    3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
    4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
    5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
    6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
    7. for he who has died is freed from sin.
    8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
    9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
    10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
    11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

    Mat. 5:48. "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    John 8:11. She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."

    Heb. 10:23. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
    24. and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
    25. not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
    Christ or Judgment
    26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
    27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
    28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
    29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
    30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
    31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


    (NASB, 1995)

    [​IMG]
     
  8. David Michael Harris

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    Lets all hope we can live a life like you Craig.

    The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

    Whats the point of having a High Priest Craig?


    David
     
  9. Shiloh

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    There are a hand full of these guys in VA. that have gone off the deep end a few years back with the "doctrine" of sinless perfection. They not only believe they don't sin after salvation but they believe they have no sin nature. They also believe they were born without a sin nature. My question to them is ...if you were born without a sin nature and can live without sinning, then why did Christ have to die on the cross?
     
  10. Ed Edwards

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    at this site:
    Figures of Speech:

    Is this figure of speach:

    //Pro-lep's-is, (Ampliatio); or, Anticipation (Hebrews 2:8).
    Anticipating what is going to be, and speaking
    of future things as present.//

    This figure of speach is also used at certain
    scriptures quoted above.
    Also note, most scrpitural uses (especially
    the KJV) of "perfect" mean "complete"
    not "without flaw" as some might try to
    sell us.
     
  11. IfbReformer

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    No, I was born in sin with a sinful nature as the scriptures say:

    IFBReformer
     
  12. IfbReformer

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    Craigbythesea,

    I knew you would avoid any direct answers to any questions in this topic.

    All the scriptures you quote admonish believers to live righteous and holy lives - no one here is arguing that.

    But I guess you will never really be able to directly answer these questions I have asked because if you answer all of them directly it will blow a huge whole through you positions.

    IFBReformer
     
  13. Craigbythesea

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    The question is whether or not it is possible for us “to live righteous and holy lives.”? Was the atonement of Christ sufficiently efficacious, or was it not? Do the Scriptures admonish us to do the impossible, or did God make it possible for us by grace through faith to be “perfect.”?

    Mat. 5:48. "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (NASB, 1995)

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Craigbythesea

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    David,

    So far I have not posted my opinion. I have simply posted the Word of God directly from the Holy Bible. Do you really want to argue against God?

    [​IMG]
     
  15. David Michael Harris

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    Save it for someone else matey.
    We await your opinion O mouth piece of God!

    David
     
  16. Craigbythesea

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    1 John 3:7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
    8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
    9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

    1 Cor. 10:13. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

    Rom. 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
    2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
    3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
    4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
    5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
    6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
    7. for he who has died is freed from sin.
    8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
    9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
    10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
    11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

    Mat. 5:48. "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    John 8:11. She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."

    Heb. 10:23. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
    24. and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
    25. not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
    Christ or Judgment
    26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
    27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
    28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
    29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
    30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
    31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    (NASB, 1995)

    So far I have not seen any one in this thread prove that these words from the Bible are not true. If you cannot prove that they are not true, perhaps you should believe them. But of course, if you don’t want to believer them, but would rather believe the devil :rolleyes: , that is your prerogative.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. David Michael Harris

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    Sorry if thats a bit strong, but I am getting fed up with some of the posts.

    I await some sort of remark....

    David
     
  18. David Michael Harris

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    Yes Ed, I agree, I think? [​IMG]

    David
     
  19. av1611jim

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    I am not sinless.
    But I do sin...less. [​IMG]
    As for sinless perfection? I am awaiting the full realization of that when I am fully and completely redeemed (meaning body AND soul AND spirit) which will be at the glorious appearing of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ..until then, 1 John 1:9

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  20. Pipedude

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    Has somebody defined "sinless perfection" yet?

    And as for this talk about our sinful bodies, didn't Jesus have a body like ours? Why do some of you talk as though leaving our bodies will make us sinless? Aren't the people presently in Hell sinful, even though they have no bodies?

    I should think that sin is a spiritual problem with a spiritual solution, if there be any solution at all. The fact that we're human had better not hinder God from applying that remedy, for we will be human for a long time after death.

    --
    The Pipedude
     

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