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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Yeshua1, Jul 20, 2012.
that God determined that to happen?
Seriously, what in the world are you talking about?
He's talking about the massacre in the theater at Aurora, Colorado late last night. Thirteen dead, 59 wounded. Worst such shooting in US history.
Yehua's question is, did God predestine this event?
Corollary question: could God have prevented it had it been his will to do so? Most would answer yes.
Further question: If God did not predestine the shootings, but could have prevented them, what does it say about the fact that he didn't prevent them?
These are not new questions. They can be asked after every tragedy of any magnitude.
Yeshua1, what do you think?
Sorry, I thought he was asking a question about something that happened in the movie.
No more than God predestined Cain to kill Abel-----which was the first murder----when Cain killed Abel suddenly 1/4 of the Earth's population was gone!!!!
We try to pinpoint the causes of such mass killings as what happened in Colorado----and then we want to make it MORE of a crime to possess any sort of firearm----but Cain killed Abel without a gun, didn't he???
Take away firearms and people will revert back to Bow and arrows to kill---take away Bow and arrows and people will revert back to knives to kill---take away knives and people will revert back to rocks and sling shots just like David---take away sling shots and every thing else---and people will revert back to killing with their bare hands just like Cain did
Since the first offspring of Adam and Eve----we are still going the "Way of Cain"
No but he is working his providential plan which I don't fully understand. God is never surprised. Remember the first born in Egypt, were they predestinated?
God did predestine the most heinous killing in the history of the world- the killing of his own Son. I think it may be a bit naive to pretend, in light of that plain fact, that he MUST not have predestined this tragedy OR the killing of Able.
The sticky part arises here when we say something like "Well if God predestined it then the humans who did it are not responsible." But that's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible creates a tension between the predestination of God and the responsibility of man.
The FACT is that God did predestine the killing of His Son.
The FACT is that Herod, Pilate, the Romans and the Jews were responsible for the murder of Christ.
What we are NOT allowed to do is take the second fact and obliterate by it the first fact.
We must accept by faith the biblical teaching of BOTH.
So are you saying that God did directly cause the batman shooting or not?
God commands us to not murder, the killer certainly did that, so God cannot break His own law, so NO, he did not cause it!
The problem that I see in stating that God "predestines" tragedy is the inner conflict some would find with their view that "God is Love."
The desire to cling to some assertion that God does not permit or predetermine a tragedy then becomes a point of asserting some human attribute of fair or unfair to what God permits or determines.
That God permits any tragedy of any magnitude, and that such tragedy is used for His desire and purpose is exampled throughout the Scriptures. The family of Israel became the nation of Israel while in bondage in Egypt. The slaughter by God's people, "who are called by His name," of all men, women, children, cattle, dogs, pigs, sheep,... in Canaan was directed by God.
Job had great personal tragedy permitted by God.
The question should perhaps not be did God "predestine" or even "permit" (which of course He did), but does such tragedy drive the believer to their knees, or to some mental gymnastics in denial of the Sovereignty of God?
In this modern church scheme, many will openly question the Sovereignty of God to some level, some will quietly stand on the sidelines in distress and even confusion on the issue, and a few will bend the knee in holy reverence that God's law is still not slack.
When believers and unbelievers gather to worship at the feet of ungodly entertainment, God may delay and it may even for a time seem approve by God, but will eventually God will still send a minister (even one heathen as can be) to either further encase the unregenerate in evil, or to bring the regenerate closer to the truth of the Scriptures.
Cannot the regenerate see that these small skirmishes are but a validation of the ultimate wrath that God has stored up in the bowls ready to be poured out upon the world?
Cannot the regenerate view tragedy of any magnitude as that used by God to confirm the unregenerate in evil and the regenerate in righteousness.
How is the Spirit of God to shine brightly in the hearts if the world is not darkened by evil and the lamp of the soul dimmed by excess and worldliness?
God certainly permitted, and may have even purposed the tragedy of the OP, but the real question is: "If all things work together for the good..." what is the believer's responsibility in application to them self and response to others when tragedy comes?
In the case of the batman shooting, I don't believe it was predestination. Of course God had to have known what the whacko was going to do....I think it was more of a choice given similar to Adam. Either dont eat the apple and live forever, or eat the apple and die....take your pick. In "whacko's" case, he chose to shoot up the theatre. An even harder to swallow topic is if he was saved (which no right minded saved soul would do), we would be in heaven with him with the "baptist" belief system.
Since God saves us, forgives us for GREATEST crime we ever did, participate on the death of Jesus by our sins, why would it be impossible for even that crazy to get saved by God?
As a baptist I don't believe it is impossible. If he was saved, he'll be in heaven even if he murdered the whole world (my belief).
As saved Christians, how much of an influence can Satan impose on us by the permissive will of God? (See Job). One can see how important it is when God says, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Yea that is my question. It looks like he wanted to say God did but did not have the courage to just come out and say it. His comparison to Jesus' death makes that clear, although one has nothing to do with the other.
It's not that simple.
You seem to be wanting a terribly simple answer to a question with fiercely complex implications.
You might as well ask, "Did God kill Christ or did the Jews do it."
So if God permits such a thing, what does that make God? How exactly is it loving to allow people to be killed?
I believe that God knew what was going to happen.