Does Calvinism teach that we are born-again TWICE!

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. icthus

    icthus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Regeneration precedes faith in Christ, thereby making to able to call upon the Lord, and then you are saved again!

    Right, or wrong?

    Since we are all "dead in sin", a dead man, so they say, cannot call upon the Lord to be saved, and therefore the Lord regenerates the heart of the elect, so that He can then call upon the Lord to be saved.

    According to my Bible, in Titus 3:5 we are told, that being "born-again" is the same as being "regenerated", which happens at the same time. But, Calvinism does not agree with Scripture here, as it says that you have to be born-again to call on the Lord to be saved, and then you are born-again the secone time!

    I think that Calvinism is not Bible-based
     
  2. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calling on the Lord is an effect of being regenerated (saved).
     
  3. icthus

    icthus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hang on, the Bible says: "Everyone, whosoever, shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved" (Greek text, Acts 2:21)

    AFTER you call upon Jesus to save you, He does, not before you were to call Him! This is a nonsense doctrine!
     
  4. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Guess what billwald, you're not very convincing!

    I've been in too many foxholes with self-proclaimed athiests. In time of trouble those same self-proclaimed athiests cry out to God! They don't want to die, though they know not why.

    What an opening that gives me to witness to them ON THEIR TERMS!
     
  5. whatever

    whatever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think you need to do some more reading.
     
  6. Kiffen

    Kiffen
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree. A common problem with Non Calvinists is their failure to read what Calvinists believe.
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Assuming this is a true premise, where is the second salvation? I don't see any reason for the word again.
     
  8. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Hi Icthus;
    You must be right because no one has stepped forward to refute what you just said or even explain it adequately.
    Example:
    Kiffen said;
    I didn't see any reply against it explanaing just how many times they are saved. Just an accusation of not reading what they said and where they said it is a mystery .
    May Christ Shine His Light On us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    As I asked Mike, where is the second salvation? (You can't ask a bad question and then celebrate the fact that no one answers it.)
     
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    And BTW, the lack of an answer says nothign about whether something is right or wrong. It may indicate that the question is so silly it doesn't deserve the dignity of a response. It may indicate that people are doing other things. It may indicate that no one interested. So don't jump to conclusions.
     
  11. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Hi Larry;
    If you claim you are regenerated in order to have faith. Then you are saved the second time when you have faith. Faith is something we must have in order to be saved. So you say we are regenerated first or saved first in order to have faith. That's impossible. We have to have faith inorder to have access to Grace.
    Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  12. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mike,

    This was thorougly discussed before. Why didn't you learn then? You continue on talking about things nobody believes.

    The whole premise of this question and your follow up shows that you don't know what you are talking about. And you have been told this before. Failure to learn is not a virtue.

    Let me tell you again and listen closely this time: Regeneration is not salvation.

    You are also wrong to say that we have to have faith in order ot have access to grace. God's grace is shown to believers and unbeleivers alike, sometimes in the same way, and sometimes in different ways.
     
  13. Kiffen

    Kiffen
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mike, No Calvinist believes anyone is saved twice. That is why most Calvinists cannot take this thread serious. If one is going to debate Calvinism (or any subject for that matter) they need to actually study the subject.
     
  14. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Hi Larry;
    Oh I guess I was just plain to dumb. Thanks for the personal attack
    Another attack I'm just plain dumb.
    Now you tell me that Regeneration doesn't mean what it is defined as. So typical of Calvinist if it doesn't fit your doctrine redefine it so that it will. This proves you wrong Larry;
    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    Salvation
    SALVA'TION, n. [L. salvo, to save.]

    1. The act of saving; preservation from destruction, danger or great calamity.

    Yep your wrong. Your wrong for telling me I don't know what I'm talking about and your wrong regeneration is salvation. Saved is Salvation.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  15. MargoWriter

    MargoWriter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,384
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just about a few weeks ago I heard for the very first time someone claim that regeneration was different than salvation.

    This person claimed that regeneration takes place AFTER salvation. He was not a calvinist and I dont' have any idea if he was arminian or not . .. I got out fast! I'm not going to stand around and listen to someone tell me lies.

    Regeneration is salvation. Salvation is not a set of steps . . first this, then this, then yada yada . . That's not the way it works. How does it work?

    Ask GOd when you get to heaven. [​IMG]
     
  16. MargoWriter

    MargoWriter
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,384
    Likes Received:
    0
    I may have just mussed up my whole point (and yes, I said 'mussed' not 'messed') . .. :rolleyes:

    I think this guy actually said being 'born again' was different than salvation. Either way, whatever he was saying was heresy. ROFL :D
    And either way, if I just said something really dumb above, correct me because as I poitned out, none of us fully understands this . . ..

    One final point: we have faith to be saved because God gives it to us . .. it is the faith of Christ, not our faith.
     
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,148
    Likes Received:
    1,309
    I know the following is quite long, but any Christian who takes 2Tim 2:15 seriously will be willing to study to show himself approved unto God, a workman who need not be ashamed, one who rightly divides the word of Truth.

    The problem seems to be that many people here are trying to discuss things they don't understand. There is a distinction between regeneration, salvation, justification, redemption, sanctification, and glorification.

    Regeneration, according to Easton: In Tit 3:5 it denotes that change of heart elsewhere spoken of as a passing from death to life (1Jo 3:14); becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus (2Co 5:17); being born again (Joh 3:5); a renewal of the mind (Rom 12:2); a resurrection from the dead (Eph 2:6); a being quickened (Eph 2:1, Eph 2:5). This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (Joh 1:12, Joh 1:13; 1Jo 2:29; 1Jo 5:1, 1Jo 5:4). As to the nature of the change, it consists in the implanting of a new principle or disposition in the soul; the impartation of spiritual life to those who are by nature "dead in trespasses and sins." The necessity of such a change is emphatically affirmed in Scripture (Joh 3:3; Rom 7:18; Rom 8:7-9; 1Co 2:14; Eph 2:1; Eph 4:21-24).

    Conversion: The turning of a sinner from his sin to God. Men are converted when, by the influence of divine grace in their souls, their whole life is changed, old things pass away, and all things become new (Act_26:18).

    Salvation: In the New Testament it is specially used with reference to the great deliverance from the guilt and the pollution of sin wrought out by Jesus Christ, "the great salvation" (Heb 2:3).

    Justification: the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon (q.v.) of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified. It is the act of a judge and not of a sovereign. The law is not relaxed or set aside, but is declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense; and so the person justified is declared to be entitled to all the advantages and rewards arising from perfect obedience to the law (Rom 5:1-10).

    Redemption: The purchase back of something that had been lost, by the payment of a ransom. There are many passages in the New Testament which represent Christ's sufferings under the idea of a ransom or price, and the result thereby secured is a purchase or redemption (Compare Act 20:28; 1Co 6:19, 1Co 6:20; Gal 3:13; Gal 4:4, Gal 4:5; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; 1Ti 2:5, 1Ti 2:6; Tit 2:14; Heb 9:12; 1Pe 1:18, 1Pe 1:19; Rev 5:9). The idea running through all these texts, however various their reference, is that of payment made for our redemption. The debt against us is not viewed as simply canceled, but is fully paid. Christ's blood or life, which he surrendered for them, is the "ransom" by which the deliverance of his people from the servitude of sin and from its penal consequences is secured. It is the plain doctrine of Scripture that "Christ saves us neither by the mere exercise of power, nor by his doctrine, nor by his example, nor by the moral influence which he exerted, nor by any subjective influence on his people, whether natural or mystical, but as a satisfaction to divine justice, as an expiation for sin, and as a ransom from the curse and authority of the law, thus reconciling us to God by making it consistent with his perfection to exercise mercy toward sinners" (Hodge's Systematic Theology).

    Sanctification: the work of the Holy Spirit bringing the whole nature more and more under the influences of the new gracious principles implanted in the soul in regeneration. In other words, sanctification is the carrying on to perfection the work begun in regeneration, and it extends to the whole man (Rom 6:13; 2Co 4:6; Col 3:10; 1Jo 4:7; 1Co 6:19). It is the special office of the Holy Spirit in the plan of redemption to carry on this work (1Co 6:11; 2Th 2:13).

    Perseverance: God continuing that which is began in regeneration. Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

    Glorification: To make glorious in the eternal state of complete perfection.

    When these terms are used interchangeably confusion often results.

    The ordo salutis (order of salvation) is the theological doctrine that deals with the logical (not temporal) sequencing of the benefits of Salvation worked by Christ which are applied to us by the Spirit. This first thing to remember is that we must never separate the benefits (regeneration, justification, sanctification) from the Benefactor (Jesus Christ). The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration, etc.) is the work of God in Christ and is by grace alone. Election is the superstructure of our ordo salutis, but not itself the application of redemption.

    Regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit which brings us into a living union with Christ, has a causal priority (again, logical, not temporal) over the other aspects of the process of salvation. God opens our eyes, we see. God unplugs our ears, we hear. Jesus calls a dead and buried Lazarus out of the grave, he comes. In the same way, the Holy Spirit applies regeneration, (opening our spiritual eyes and renewing our affections), infallibly resulting in faith. All the benefits of redemption such as conversion (faith & repentance), justification, sanctification and perseverance presuppose the existence of spiritual life (regeneration). The work of applying God's grace is a unitary process given to the elect simultaneously. This is instantaneous, but there is definitely a causal order (regeneration giving rise to all the rest). Though these benefits cannot be separated, it is helpful to distinguish them. Therefore, instead of imposing a chronological order we should view these as a unitary work of God to bring us into union with Christ.

    We must always keep in mind that the orders expressed occur together or happen simultaneously like the turning on of a light switch or a faucet. But God turns on the light/faucet, so to speak. All aspects of the work of God continue together throughout the life of a Christian.
     
  18. icthus

    icthus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Pastor Larry, can I ask you a question? Is your Pastorship of a Christian Church, or is it some other "faith"? I am serious, because you believe and teach that which is no where to be found in the Holy Bible. Unless you have one of those versions that have, for example, 29 chapters in Acts!

    You boldly say: "Let me tell you again and listen closely this time: Regeneration is not salvation"

    We all hear you loud and clear, but are puzzeled why you have failed to back this ridiculous statement with a verse or two from the Good Book?

    So, you are saying that "Regeneration" does not mean to be "born-again"?. Then, what exactly is it? The passage in Titus chapter 3, which has been quoted a couple of time already, clearly states: "...He SAVED us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (v.5). I mean, if you are having problems with the English language here, we could provide this is another tongue for you!

    Now, to make things easier all round, I ought to share what the Greek word and meaning is for "Regeneration" as used here. The Greek word is "palingenesia", which is a compound word from "palin"="again", and "genesis"="birth". In other words, "born-again" Could not be any clearer or simpler!

    Loraine Boettner had this to say:

    "A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved." (Predestination, p.101)

    And, A W Pink:

    "A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because he has been regenerated." (The Holy Spirit, p.55)

    But, both these mens views, like your own, clearly is at odds with Divine Scripture. You might want to reconsider your position here?
     
  19. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Hi Kiffen;
    Are you suggesting I haven't studdied the subject?. If so then why don't you show how a man can be saved with out faith. Regeneration is being saved. Being a Calvinist your self then maybe you'd care to explain how one can be regenerated with out faith. Larry says that regeneration isn't Salvation the dictionary says he is wrong. The Bible says He's wrong. If regeneration isn't Salvation then what is it. Could it be justification? If so.
    Justification;
    In theology, remission of sin and absolution from guilt and punishment; or an act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner and accepts him as righteous, on account of the atonement of Christ.
    Seems to me that all three words including Salvation mean the same thing.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  20. icthus

    icthus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    TCassidy, I read your long post of theological jargon, since most of it, like the "order of salvation" is not taught in Scripture, but has been formulated by theologians to help us understand what things are saying.

    However, you have not answered the main text that I have given, which clearly shows that there is NO DIFFERENCE between "Regeneration" and "born-again", since the latter is what the Greek actually says!

    Scripture is also clear to the fact, that if we, "confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe with our heart that God has raised Him from the dead, we shall be saved. For with the heart we believe to righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made resultimg in savlation" (Romans 10:9-10, with modifications)

    All of the above takes place UPON BELIEVING, not in stages as Calvinists teach!
     

Share This Page

Loading...