It seems to us Calvinists that many people want to CLAIM they believe in the Sovereignty of God while undermining it by saying that MOST things that happen everyday in our world are NOT the will of God. Like, for examples, every ounce of pain, every bit of mistreatment, all death and, the perishing of ANY soul. He didn't want them to happen. He knew they would but never intended that they happen. We say, "So you guys are saying that God has FORFEITED his sovereignty to man in this world, right?" Then the emphatic, "NO!! NO!! God has sovereignly made man sovereign!" (or something to that effect). Of course this makes no sense. Who is in charge? That's what sovereignty is about. Who is getting his way? Who is controlling things? If God has made MAN sovereign then God has FORFEITED his sovereignty. Now these people believe that God is powerful enough to take it back when he wants to, but the FACT- I mean the plain simple FACT is that until he does, MAN is sovereign in this world. There is suffering, not because God always intended that there be suffering, but because MAN has brought it to pass AGAINST the will of God. Man controls suffering in this world. Man is the sovereign ruler over suffering. Since their is WAY more people suffering than not, MAN rules, at LEAST most of this world. Here is the matter at hand: Did God PURPOSE everything that ever happens? Is everything that ever happens, from the horrible death of a child to the perishing of an eternal soul, fulfilling the ULTIMATE purpose of God which he purposed before the foundation of the world? Did God always intend for everything to happen as it has and will? When a man goes to hell, is he thwarting the purposes of God or is he fulfilling that eternal purpose of God? Did God always intend and purpose and ultimately WILL (not proximately but remotely) that that man go to hell? In conclusion, this is not about how many verses teach, in your opinion, that God is not Sovereign right now. This is about getting these people to admit that they do not believe in the current Sovereignty of God. We can discuss the verses that seem to TEACH that God is not sovereign later. Right now simply answer and explain this: Does everything that happens happen according to the ultimate purpose and will of God or is man thwarting the purposes and ultimate will of God?