Does God bluff?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Apr 1, 2003.

  1. William C

    William C
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    Recently Preach The Word posted this:

    Does God threaten people to move them to repentance? Why would God do that? Is the "effectual calling" not enough to bring someone to repentance, so God must lie to people telling them that he would do something that he wouldn't ever do?

    In short, does God bluff us?

    Do all the Calvinists on this board believe this or has PTW stepped away from the Calvinistic orthadoxy once again?
     
  2. Daniel David

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    Does God threaten people to move them to repentance? Why would God do that? Is the "effectual calling" not enough to bring someone to repentance, so God must lie to people telling them that he would do something that he wouldn't ever do?

    In short, does God bluff us?

    Do all the Calvinists on this board believe this or has PTW stepped away from the Calvinistic orthadoxy once again?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Bill, I would like to extend my hand to you to join the rest of us in reality. If I say to my son to clean his room or he will be spanked, then that is a legitimate promise that can be averted if obedience is what follows.

    So, God threatened to wipe out the Ninevites. However, through Jonah's preaching (and their repentance), God did not wipe that generation out.

    Any more bogus generalities that don't make sense?
     
  3. npetreley

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    Considering the distance, you must have REALLY long arms, otherwise you're just bluffing. ;)

    Mr. Bill, EVERY threat God makes and does not fulfill is a bluff from the perspective of perfect foreknowledge. From the perspective of God's truth, however, it is not a bluff. If it were possible for people NOT to respond to the threat in the way God intends, then God would fulfill the threat.

    To use the example by PTW, if I threaten my son with a spanking if he does not clean his room -- knowing full well that the threat of a spanking will motivate him to clean it -- then in one sense it is a bluff, because I know the threat will accomplish the desired result. In another sense it is not a bluff, because if he didn't clean his room, he really would have gotten a spanking.

    Anyway, I recommend you pack a few years' worth of snacks for your trip. ;)
     
  4. Frogman

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    Have you considered your assumption here? Judging from PTW and Nepetrely's posts I believe they understand what this statement is assuming. Do you? :confused:

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  5. ScottEmerson

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    My perspective on this is found in Jeremiah 18:5-10

    I don't see them as idle threats - I see them remarkably similar to the Calvinists on this matter.
     
  6. William C

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    This type of demeanor doesn't not suit Christian debate, but if it makes you feel better go ahead. I am trying to refrain.

    Yes, I agree. So your statement, "Is this possible? No." Would be contradictory to this analogy for it is possible for the child to actually get a spanken, you say its not possible for Israel to have been wiped out.

    Actually their repentance didn't last and God ended up destroying them. But, even so, the possiblity of their being wiped out was a reality, not a bluff.

    PTW, do you remember in what context you made this statement.

    I pointed to the text in Rev. which asserts that those who don't continue in faith and repentance will be erased. Is that a real threat? Or is that a bluff. If its not possible it must just be a bluff. If Jesus wanted those whose name where written in the book to not fear their name being erased, don't you think He would have explained that this wasn't really a possiblity?
     
  7. William C

    William C
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  8. Daniel David

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    Bill, I would encourage you to reject Open Theism. It is a heresy that no true believer holds to. Keep studying.
     
  9. ScottEmerson

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    I know several true believers who are open theists. Who are you to say who is saved and who is not?
     
  10. TheTravelingMinstrel

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    I know several true believers who are open theists. Who are you to say who is saved and who is not? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I will turn that same statement upon you.
    Who are you to decide who is a true beleiver.
     
  11. npetreley

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    Because God communicates to human beings in a language they can understand, and because the threat is true. As I said, if my son didn't clean his room, he'd get spanked. That truth doesn't change just because I know the threat will motivate him to clean his room.

    This question doesn't make any sense at all. You've mixed unrelated concepts together in order to create a problem that doesn't exist.

    For one thing, to stand as testimony against them when they disobey. The Bible even phrases it exactly that way, and does so many times.

    You are misquoting me and misrepresenting my argument. In fact, I said that God is the ultimate cause of everything.

    If you controlled reality, that might mean something.

    No. I agree that God is not the direct cause. God is the ultimate cause of everything. Trace everything back to the original cause and you get God. So by creating the boy with perfect foreknowledge that disobedience would be the consequences of all God's decisions means God ultimately foreordained that it would happen.

    This is an argument based on your conclusion that the threat did not motivate the child to clean his room. As support for this conclusion you have offered this remarkable and comprehensive collection of evidence for the premise: "I say no."

    Anything you extrapolate from that premise carries about as much weight as the premise itself. None.

    The rest simply continues from there, and since it is a premise without any substance, there's no point in addressing it.
     
  12. Daniel David

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    Scott, true believers don't redefine God. No, O.T. is an idolatrous theology. No true believer holds to it.

    I also have to say that it is just so weird for an arminian to be pro-Open Theism. What with arminians being so saturated with Scriptural arguments. [​IMG]
     
  13. Daniel David

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    Bill, I would encourage you to do a study on the purpose of warning passages. If I told you, you would not listen. Study it for yourself. Just don't study it the same way you studied calvinism. :rolleyes:
     
  14. ScottEmerson

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    So you are sure that you have the 100% correct version of understanding God. Are you willing to risk your eternal salvation on that? What if the Arminians are right? What saves us is the blood of Christ, not whether we are Calvinist, Arminian, or even Open Theist.

    i don't think Open Theism is correct, mind you. But I'm not willing to go on record as saying that anyone who is an open theist is going to Hell.
     
  15. ScottEmerson

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    They've confessed with their mouth that Jesus is Lord. They believe in their heart that Jesus was raised from the dead. They are showing fruits of their salvation. I'm just going by what the Word says, unlike Preach the Word.
     
  16. Daniel David

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    I am. They are going to hell.
     
  17. Daniel David

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    1. It can't be the Jesus of their imagination. For example, if their "Jesus" isn't fully man or God, then that "Jesus" will not save them. Got it?

    2. Again, it can't be a figment of their imagination.

    3. Who are you to judge? Many old people supposedly demonstrate Christlike characteristics. That doesn't mean they are saved. Imitation isn't the same thing as production.

    4. I had no idea this forum was so comical. I will have to spend more time here. My suggestion to you would be to stop wrenching passages from their intended context and meaning in favor your sporatic nonsense. Of course, this is my humble opinion.
     
  18. William C

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    But if you were the one who gave him the ability to clean his room and you chose not to give him that ability; how would you be just in punishing him for not doing what you have threatened him to do.

    Let's say your son is a paralized because you bound him over to paralization so that you might have mercy on him and you are the only one with the medication to heal him. You tell him clean your room or I'm going to beat you and throw you in the basement for the rest of your life, but you choose not to give your son the medication he needs to carry out your command. Of course, he just lies there unable to move and obey your command, so you beat him and throw him in the basement.

    Not even our civilized secular systems of justice, which do not even rise close to the level of God's grace, would hold and man accountable for something he has no control over, yet you expect people to believe that the God of all Grace and Love would be less merciful than heathens. :( That is sad.

    No, I haven't. The threat of having your name erased from the lambs book of life was asserted by PTW to be a motivator of repentance but not really possible. If it wasn't really possible for a name to be erased, then why did Jesus say what he did? Does Jesus lie to motivate repentance?

    There are 2 possiblities:

    1. It is possible to have your name erased from the book of life, so you better strive to continue in the faith.

    2. It is not possible to have your name erased from the book of life and Jesus was making an empty threat (bluff) to motivate people to continue in the faith.

    If you choose #2 my question is this: Why would Jesus strive to motivate the elect by telling them something that cannot happen? Is the effectually calling of God not enough of a motivation that they need Christ to threaten them with lies? Why would he lead them to believe the lie that their names might be erased if they didn't continue in the faith? This just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Can you please explain?

    Also, if Jesus was willing to make his audience believe that their names could be erased, who are we to make his audience think otherwise with our systematic theological answers? If Christ wanted his audience to think they were being threaten, shouldn't we be just as threatened by believing that our names could indeed be erased?

    Some testimony.

    Sir you stand condemned because God bound you over to disobedence but only chose to have mercy on the elect. You are not one of those elect so you are now being damned to hell.

    But why wasn't I chosen by God, its not fair?

    No sir, its not fair, its Grace for the elect, not you. We told you to repent many times, but you refused.

    Yes, I did refuse, but (according to Calvinism) I refused because of the Fall in which God imputed Adam's sin unto me thus binding me over to disobeidence and I was never unbound or shown mercy as those who did repent. Therefore your call for me to repent could not have been for me, for according to you I could not hear as a result of God's binding me over to disobedience.

    It sounds like man has an excuse afterall?

    Even sin? Shame on you!

    God doesn't even tempt men to sin, much less cause it!

    Oh, when I add the word "DIRECT" it means something else?

    How is it that you insist God is not the "direct cause" of sinful choices, but he must be the "direct cause" of right choices? Sounds completely inconsistant.

    By that logic we could also say Adam was the direct cause of everything, because if he hadn't "known" his wife none of us would be here. [​IMG]

    Is everything my son does caused by me because I concieved him? I guess you could say that, but it would be silly. The concieving of my son doesn't make me responsible for all his actions. In the same way, God's creation of us is not a basis for believing God must cause all things. (what is your difference between directly causing and just causing?)

    So you believe that the threat that one's name could be erased from the book of life does motivate the elect to continue in the faith, as if they wouldn't otherwise?
     
  19. Baptist Believer

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    I am. They are going to hell. </font>[/QUOTE]:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    That’s right… You’re not afraid to be profoundly wrong and falsely judge people according to extra-biblical standards.

    But that’s nothing new…

    When the two of us are together in the fullness of God’s kingdom, we can laugh at this foolishness. :D
     
  20. Frogman

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    It seems to me that in denying the total depravity of man it becomes necessary for you to deny the fact that God is just.

    Those who are not elect are satisfied with their present condition and realize no other existence. We too were taken from this lot; a condition from which we need the effectual call of God in order that we escape.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     

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