Does God Deceive People? Ezekiel 14:9

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Will J. Kinney, Feb 7, 2004.

  1. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    Does God Deceive People? - Ezekiel 14:9

    There are many truths found in the Holy Scriptures that many present day Christians find unpalatable. Most Christians today do not read their Bibles, so they don't come across these truths, and the modern versions are doing their best to hide them, if one should stumble upon them in God's word. Such is the case with Ezekiel 14:9.

    The context is clearly about a false prophet and the person who comes to him. Beginning at Ezekiel 14:7 we read: "For everyone of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself; And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. And IF THE PROPHET BE DECEIVED when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD HAVE DECEIVED that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity; the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him." (Eze. 14:7-11)

    God does deceive. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 tells of those who received not the love of the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness and "for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

    Isaiah 29:10 "For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes; the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered."

    In 1 Kings 22:19-23 the LORD was sitting on his throne and all the host of heaven were about Him. He asked who shall persuade Ahab that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead. A spirit volunteered to go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of his prophets. "Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets."

    Job 12:16 tells us "the deceived and the deceiver are his."

    Here in Ezekiel 14:9 the phrase "If the prophet be DECEIVED when he hath spoken a thing, I THE LORD HAVE DECEIVED that prophet" is the same in the Geneva Bible 1599, Coverdale 1535, Bishop's Bible 1568, the Revised Version 1881, the ASV 1901, the RSV, NRSV, the 2001 ESV, Green's interlinear, the 1936 Hebrew-English translation put out by the Hebrew Publishing Company, New York, the Catholic Douay Version 1950, the St. Joseph New American Bible 1970, the Spanish Reina Valera 1960, the KJV 21st Century, and the Itlalian Diodati.

    The NIV departs the least from the true reading with its "if the prophet is ENTICED to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have ENTICED that prophet."

    The NKJV changes the whole meaning with: "if the prophet IS INDUCED TO SPEAK anything, I the LORD have INDUCED that prophet."

    The NASB basically agrees with the NKJV saying: "if the prophet IS PREVAILED UPON to speak a word, it is I , the LORD, who have PREVAILED UPON that prophet."

    Both the NKJV and NASB obliterate the sense of God's deceiving this prophet, and have blandly substituted the idea of God merely moving upon him to cause him to speak.

    With the NIV, we could well ask: With what did God entice the prophet? It doesn't say nor even hint at any incentive being given. Rather, the prophet is deceived by God as well as the man who comes to him because they have separated themselves from the LORD and set up their idols in their hearts.

    I personally believe a similar thing is occuring today with the Bible version issue. Many have set up their own intellects, respected men, and scholarship as an idol in their hearts, and God is handing them over to deception and unbelief. These modern versions are not God's true, inspired words.

    Will Kinney
     
  2. ScottEmerson

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    Yawn. The word in question is pathah, which is translated in the KJV as "entice" more than it is translated "deceive." Pathah is also translated as "persuade." Interestingly enough, one of the passages that Will mentions as proof is I Kings 22:21-22, and both of those verses have the word pathah in them, and the translators translated both as "persuade."

    And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

    So, I really don't have a problem with either the KJV or the newer versions. All of them accurately represent the text. Personally, I like "entice" better than "deceive" because it more accurately represents the word in question, I think.

    Another long post that really doesn't say anything of note.
     
  3. GrannyGumbo

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    Thank you, BroWill~I appreciate your posts! [​IMG]
     
  4. robycop3

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    I agree, Scott. The exact word doesn't matter all that much. God can do ANYTHING. If He wills that a "prophet" believe a certain thing, it will be done. He willed that the Chaldean "prophets" of Nebuchadnezzar tell him to attack Jerusalem, causing them to derive their "prophecy" from that cutting-edge marvel of prognosticism, examining the lines on a goat's liver. There's an infinite difference in the human devices of persuasion, enticement, or deception, and God's simply willing that someone believe something.

    By that same infinite power, God has presented His word to us as HE chose, not subject to the whims of man.
     
  5. rbrent

    rbrent
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    robycop wrote:
    :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

    You probably didn't mean that like it sounds...

    "Every word of God is pure..." Prov 30:5
     
  6. Precepts

    Precepts
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    Rbrent,

    I see you noticed that too. He and Scott are both talented in that area. Why look at Scott's last statement in his post, now we will have to determine how long is "long".

    Brother Will, you've done another excellent job of showing us all the superiority of the AV 1611 KJB over the mv's. [​IMG]

    Cranston and Scott, yall too have done an excellent job also, of showing the fallacies of your belief system by contradicting yourselves about any certain words in the Bible.

    I would have to say the KJB translators have given, again, the more sense of the word in the context.

    Uh, CONTEXT, The mv killer! [​IMG]

    Oh, and Cranston, I do agree with your last statement, you ought to learn to quit "whimmin'" so much. [​IMG]

    On second thought may be you should stick to whimmin', some body will think something if you start sticking to min.
     
  7. Will J. Kinney

    Will J. Kinney
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    Thank you Granny and Quickening Spirit for your comments and love for God's pure words. Yes, the King James Bible is ALWAYS right and it is God's inspired words on the earth today.

    The Probably Close Enuf Club has no infallible, inerrant, inspired Bible as their Final Authority, and the ones they do think are "reliable versions" (whatever that might mean) all contain errors, false doctrines, and promote uncertainty and doubt.

    They can't even get their act together and agree with each another, let alone with the King James Holy Bible.

    Scott's "yawn" only shows his spiritual dullness and apathy regarding what should be the most important truth in our short lives here on this earth - "What saith the Scriptures?"

    He that hath ears to hear, let him (or her, Granny) hear.

    God bless,

    Will K
     
  8. Precepts

    Precepts
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    Man, you're a riot! "The Probably Close Enuf Club"
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  9. ScottEmerson

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    No apathy at all. If I were apathetic, I wouldn't have responded. The yawn was to show that it's the same old-same old argument. I notice that you didn't answer my refutation, only avoided it.

    The Scriptures say pathah, which the KJV translators themselves translated it as entice more than deceived. Therefore, based upon both the definition and the context of the passage in question, either word suffices in a English translation.
     
  10. Precepts

    Precepts
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    You have finally admitted that my posts have given you the insight to consider the context now. Only if you would begin to view the real aspect of the context to determin the definition of the word.
     
  11. Orvie

    Orvie
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    Notice willie adds to God's Word: "He that hath ears to hear, let him (or her, Granny) hear." willie, go out on the street now and speak in public in 17th Century English, go ahead I'll wait...now did you do it? Prob not. Why? because you don't wanna sound silly, yet you expect God to sound silly. Earth calling willie, earth calling willie, God does not have "speech impediment" as another said. He is not limited to speaking to His children in an Anglican-biased translation based on olde Ingles. No translation, including the one you worship is 100% perfect. As Roby said, name one verse in the KJV that says "The KJV is inspired" you can't, therefore you have a man made doctrine. That's why for the umpteenth time you got to go to the source that the 1611 was based upon. Simple, isn't it? Why haven't you and qs gone to the "Double Standard" thread and attemted to refute the Double Standard(s)? the many, many, many double standards and inconsistencies of your position. All you do is pick out certain verses that you think proves your point, based on the King James Translation, even more so than it's source and attempt to prove your point. Well, go to the aforementioned thread and give it a shot. Pastor KevinR, BrianT, Robycop3, etc would love to see how you and qs double-speak your DECIEVED selves out of your man made tradition. [​IMG] ...that makes my post alright, doesn't it, qs?
     
  12. Precepts

    Precepts
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    "Aforementioned" "Aforementioned"? [​IMG]

    You contradict yourself in your own post.

    I'm believing what I see is you and others are propigating an mv man made doctrine. God has already established Doctrine, e did so inthe AV 1611 KJB for English speaking people, including, uh, well, YOU!

    Brother Will's points are valid, The LORD in His Word, the witness of the Spirit, and I also agree.

    Nah-nah,ni-boo-boo! [​IMG]
     
  13. Orvie

    Orvie
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    "Nah-nah, ni boo-boo!" Okay, we're finally in agreement :D
    About the other part of your post I've quoted: Please name one verse that says anything at all about one version in any language being preserved, especially to us that version is almost 400 years old. You have pickled it! :eek: The Word of God is like bread, it's got to be fresh , not stale. [​IMG]
     
  14. Precepts

    Precepts
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  15. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    but does that incl. the deuterocanonicals Waite n Riplinger n Ruckman between the testaments?

    :D

    there's no way anyone cld wind up w KJBOism without those important books! [​IMG]
     
  16. Precepts

    Precepts
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    I'm still amazed at 12 years old the Lord made it clear in my heart the AV 1611 KJB is the Bible for today, and y'know sumthin'? Today is forever settled in Heaven! [​IMG]
     
  17. tinytim

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    Then are you going to actually use one this Sunday. If you use a 1769, then you have went against God.

    Do you actually use the 1611, or are you lying?
     
  18. Pastor KevinR

    Pastor KevinR
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    Bro R, I believe your analogy fails because it holds up the one English translation as the Final Authority, when we should go to where that very translation is based upon. I belive the statement should be, "Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21 in the Original writings" (Just like the AV translators said. ;) ) One of my preacher friends said, "I believe the Bible from Genesis 1:1 to maps !" :D :eek:
     

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