Does God hate sinners?

So true, so true. :thumbs:

 

I think our disagreement here may be related to our lack of understanding the terms being debated.

Hatred in scripture can be understood in different ways. For example, we are instructed in one instance to love our parents and honor them, but in another instance told we must hate them in our devotion to God.

Is this a contradiction? No. It's a difference in terms as understood in our modern language and culture. Clearly, God is instructing us to CHOOSE Christ over our parents. Likewise, there are times God chooses one individual for noble purposes (Jacob) and another for common use (Esau), for no outward or understood reason. But this shouldn't be understood as God not loving Esau, but simply as His not choosing him for the noble purpose of being the linage of Christ.

Hate doesn't have to mean the absence of love, as you seem to also support. "Hate" is used as a description for being under wrath for sin, but that doesn't even suggest that God doesn't love the sinner and sincerely desire them to repent and be saved. So, in the same way my child may make me angry and even be under my punishment without ever ceasing to be sincerely loved. That 'anger and punishment' might be interpreted as "hate" in the biblical use of the word but it doesn't negate my love.

 

You mean the words in the bible are Sort of like date rape? She says no and he interprets as full steam ahead.
So the bible says hate, but it really means love with anger? I think in this case I will stick to the meaning of the word and believe God has the ability to do both without violating Himself or the language.

 

Moses and others have said that ....yes:thumbs:

I am sure God hates any and all sin. But I do not read anywhere that God hates what they have become.....since the fall....His wrath is constantly abiding on sinners.
What verses did you read that lead you to your conclusion?

the bible no where says this....in fact it says God will send multitudes to hell. Mt7:21-24

friend...you just took 2pet3:9 out of context completely,mis-quoted it, and came to a wrong conclusion based on your error.

I say you have errored big time...but you can still correct it....

4For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

It does not say...he hates all their sins...it says he hates them

He does not hate what they have become....he hates who they are outside of his Son.

6Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

God loves sinners in Christ.....the wrath of God is revealed against all those still outside.....thats why we bring the gospel to them.

Reformed believers leave the scriptures in context and believe them as written:type::thumbs:

 

No disrespect intended here, but if I am comprehending your statements here (and I may not be), there is a struggle with accepting God's capacity for what you and I would define as hatred. God is as capable of hatred, as I define the term, as I am. Albeit, His hatred is always born out of righteousness and while extended toward man, has a redemptive purpose. God's anger/wrath/hatred for Satan and demons is very real and will have no end. God's anger/wrath/hatred for man is equally powerful and can only be escaped by being sheltered by the love and grace of God in Christ. God poured that anger/wrath/hatred out on His Son. So sufficient is that work that while I continue to have practical sin in my life, I am spiritually and practically made righteous in God's eyes as I "put on Christ."

I fully accept and affirm that God's love and hatred can and do co-mingle as the Scriptures communicate both truths. For God, one can imply the absence of the other or it may not. In my case, while I was consumed in sin God hated me and my sin... yet my name was written in the Book of Life, God loves me. Because of Jesus, God's hatred for me is removed... the penalty of my sin is displaced leaving only hatred for my sin which will be addressed when I am glorified.

The church has been pummeled with "God is love" for so long that we have created a God other than the one of the Bible in our image, rendering Him domesticated and impotent in the view of many. In my thinking, this renders the Gospel to be trivial and opens a door for universalist thinking, which we have seen in the lives of JRW Stott and Billy Graham.

 

I know this is scripture but hey it's exactly what I wanted to say.

"Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Generally we never here of someone dying for someone they hate. He died for sinners.
MB

 

Ok, if you are going to be like that our discussion is over. Now, go hate your mother and father like Jesus says, after all that can't be taken any other way than what it says or you will be 'violating' the language.

 

No, I accept what I believe is being revealed. I just believe that hatred in scripture doesn't always mean the same thing and its not necessarily the opposite of love...which is something most seem to agree upon.

I agree. But would you agree that someone can be under God's wrath while still being sincerely loved by him in such a way that He would sincerely want that one to come to repentance? Can an enemy under his wrath (which you use synonymously with 'hate') be sincerely loved by God? I believe so, do you? If so, we have no disagreement. I am only disagreeing with those who believe that God either loves or hates an individual, as if they can't be under wrath (hated) and still loved and wanted to come to repentance.

It is impossible to over emphasize the love of God. It is possible to ignore His other attributes, but it is never possible to exaggerate the level, goodness or far reaching effects of His love. Thus, I wouldn't say anyone has be plummeted with God's love, but instead that they may not have been given the full scope of his Glory and righteousness...but I know what you meant and I actually agree to that extent.

 

Evang:

ICON:

Icon, I usually agree with you, but what are you talking about here. His statement just restates what the verse says.

 

Maybe I am building a strawman or something I just want to know those who view some are hated so much that God has not provided a way to salvation for them.

There is an orphan rejected by his parents from birth. He never was a adopted and moved around to foster home to foster home. He never felt loved all his life and he found out God does the same things that happen to him to others. That He rejects people before they were even born without any hope for salvation. He continues to reject God.

Is your view of

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

more important than that person coming to Jesus? To finally feel the love he should of had all his life.

 

Psalms109, while your argument is one of pathos, your post does point to the lack of practicality of this dogma. This is why most Calvinists would never attempt to fully disclose some of these attributes of God until one comes to faith. I think they know that practically speaking most non-believers wouldn't 'understand' or 'accept' the harshness of this system.

 

Be careful of platitudes, such as "God loves the sinner but hates the sin."

That is an effort to separate the sin from the sinner.
But, apart from the blood of Jesus, it is impossible.

 

God has given a new heart made of flesh soft again a group who's main desire is men to come to Jesus and do this by emotions their desire to see men saved, and another group who is callused for the sinners and want to save the saved to a Sotierology and don't care if they walk away from Jesus by doing this? If they do they wasn't His in the first place. Isn't that coming to a Pharisee attitude that Jesus was angry with? No middle ground?

 

Malachi 3:6 KJV

For I am the LORD, I change not;

 

I never suggested otherwise, but thanks! Coming to understand God more fully doesn't mean that He has changed, just that our understanding of him is more complete. What we know of God we know through a 'dim glass,' according to Paul. What we come to know of him in heaven will be more full than it is now, but that doesn't mean He has changed. Mankind's understanding of God from the time of David to the time of Christ has grown because the revelation has increased, but that doesn't mean He has ever changed.

 

:thumbsup:

 

No,,,,,he only quoted part of the verse......when you read the whole verse it says the opposite of what he was implying.This verse is almost always mis-quoted;
.the verse says;

The Lord is longsuffering to -Usward.....he is addressing the elect believers in chapter 3 in contract to the scoffers
1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


The whole epistle is written to the beloved...He is not willing that any of those given to Him shall perish.......

There are two different words used...bulemai....thelo.....one is decreed destined or purposed...the other wish,or desire..

God is very willing that many perish....He takes no delight in the death of the wicked, He wept over jerusalem,,,ezk33 mt23....nevertheless He will justly command the angelic beings to cast them into outer darkness .

 

Do you have some proof of your accusations here of what "most" Calvninists do? A quote from a few scholars who support you may suffice. Provide proof that most Cals do what you've accused with scholarly proofs. Thanks.

No theology, no matter the flavor, discloses all theology at the foot of the cross where sinners are saved. Instead the Gospel is the milk whereby they are saved, meat is reserved for the mature.

As they progress, then meat would be given to them.

Fortunately in the Cal camp, meat is oft given, and study more vigorous. In non-cal camps proof-text theology reigns, thus there is much error.

What one who is in a proof-text camp calls "harshness" is what those within a "meat" camp call beauty.

Furthermore, Cals progress theologically into embracing these other attributes of God. Unlike non-cals who wish to not look at or delve into these other truths, we tend to embrace them, and look for more, and deeper discoveries of the person of God in all of His attributes, not just the ones that make us feel comfy. Non-cals call these attributes harsh (as you are doing) yet again, we call them beautiful and glorious.

 

Hebrews 5:
Warning Against Falling Away
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Meat is the righteous teaching in scripture, not have to be continue to be taught to believe, trust in Jesus and about having to repent all the time, but to live what we believe. That Jesus light shines through us in the darkness.

It isn't knowledge, but wisdom through putting what we believe into practice.