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Featured Does God have "free will - choice?"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Nov 23, 2013.

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  1. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    Freedom is a part of God's nature, and He has endowed all humans and angels with that freedom. To love requires freedom; without freedom, to truly love is not possible. Without freedom, love is not love but compulsion.
     
    #21 Thomas Helwys, Dec 1, 2013
  2. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    #22 Inspector Javert, Dec 1, 2013
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  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I know this sounds like a "cop-out" and/or an oversimplification but

    God is who He is whether we comprehend the dynamics of His will and thought process or not - and we don't. His word plainly decalres it:

    KJV Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts...

    Personally I believe its better that we don't understand it all (at this juncture).

    NKJ Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM."

    KJV John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.​

    But we can obey that which He has plainly revealed to us

    John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.​



    HankD
     
    #23 HankD, Dec 1, 2013
  4. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    It depends on what you mean by "freedom."

    Do you mean, "The ability to do what you want to do?"

    Then yes. Every Calvinist and even the most hard determinist on Earth believes God and man possess free will.

    But the question is, "Why does he want what he wants?"

    We are compelled to choose what we choose. We are compelled by our desires. If we are not compelled by our desires, then we are not free in ANY definition of the term.

    But why do we want what we want? I think it is self evident. Because we are what we are.

    What makes us what we are? God does.

    God designed our DNA. God designed the world in which we are placed. God decided where exactly we would be born and of which set of parents. God decided which events he would both bring to pass actively and would allow to come to pass in our lives.

    God did those things.

    We choose what we choose because we are what we are.

    We are what we are because God made us what we are.

    Now, the reader of this post is exploding with the implications of this. "THEN YOU BLAME GOD FOR ____________"

    But implications are a another topic. We have to admit this step without dealing with the implications of it first. Then we deal with the implications of it in the next step.

    Arminians want to jump past facts to implications of the facts and then deny the facts because they do not like the things they think the facts imply.

    But you don't judge whether or not something is so based upon whether or not you are comfortable with what it being so means. Not if you AT ALL care about real objectivity. If you do judge what is so based upon whether or not you like where it leads then you are COMPLETELY subjective and not to be trusted. You are not a seeker of truth if that is the case. You are a seeker comfort.
     
    #24 Luke2427, Dec 1, 2013
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    :thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
    #25 JonC, Dec 1, 2013
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    It seems to me that a number of responses have not dealt directly with the OP.

    The OP's position is that God does NOT have freedom of will - choice, but is constrained to His divine nature.

    The OP would suggest that both the unredeemed humankind, the demonic hosts, God and angelic hosts must follow their single nature which obliges conformity. That "freedom" exists within and only as to what is consistent with that nature.

    As man is created in God's image, it follows that unsaved man also does not have such an expression of freedom - that ability to choose or will what is contrary to the nature.

    Perhaps then, when Christ said that the believer would be free indeed, it could perhaps be extrapolated, from the OP, that such freedom is the ability to engage either will (fallen and redeemed), either nature (fallen and redeemed).

    Perhaps in that realm, the believer is found in the most unique position of expressing the attributes of the saved and suppressing the attributes of the unregenerate, by a true and unique total freedom of choice - will. Such a condition that both the ungodly, and Godly of heaven and earth are amazed and wonder.

    I have moved the OP to the bottom of this post so that the folks won't have to travel back to the beginning to address it. I also edited two spelling errors from it (deoes, possition).


     
    #26 agedman, Dec 1, 2013
  7. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I'm not seeing this distinction being addressed in this thread. I could have missed it but I don't think so.
     
    #27 Skandelon, Dec 1, 2013
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think with us contra-casual free will is questionable as we are bound, or at least influenced, by experiential aspects of being human if nothing else (specifically, a progressive development). Or… perhaps we can break these influencers and truly possess an uninfluenced and libertarian free-will. It’s not anything that can be proven, but then again, this issue wouldn’t apply to an eternal God.

    Can we freely choose between choices that we perceive as equally valid options? I believe so. Scripture indicates that our choices belong to us while the future and outcome of those choices belong to God.

    Could God have chosen to refrain from creating the earth or creatures - of course he could. This is a matter of omnipotence, not the will. Would he have chosen otherwise? Well, history shows he wouldn’t. That doesn’t mean that God was not free to create, but that it was his will to create. Does this mean that God desired something that didn’t exist prior to creation? I believe so, but not that he somehow lacked in sufficiency apart from the act of creation. But then again, I question the doctrine of divine impassibility (at least to an Augustinian degree). Can we comprehend such things? Perhaps you or someone else can, but not I.:confused:

    Could I have had pancakes for breakfast? Yep - got the mix in the cabinet. Would I? No. Was this a free choice on my part? I think so, but it would be impossible to prove. There may have been a reason beyond my awareness (maybe my wife whispered "don't make a mess" to me while I slept). :laugh:
     
    #28 JonC, Dec 1, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2013
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    JonC, it does not appear we have any point of disagreement, at least as far as this last post is concerned. :)
     
    #29 Skandelon, Dec 1, 2013
  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Is God free not to create?

    I don't think so, for He is the creator. The only "I AM" capable of making from nothing - substance.

    Mercy though is a whole different matter.

    Scriptures state, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy."

    God's nature does not oblige Him to have mercy on anything.

    The last question is no we do not need, nor are we given insight into why God expresses His mercy as He chooses.

    I question your definition of 'contra-causally free' as not consistent with what I am finding on the Web.

    Atheist, naturalist, even answers..com (added second dot to remove automatic link) all have definitions that are variant from yours. Most reject the choosing from various options, and embrace a larger, choice bracket devoid of any constraints be it nature, body, peer, ...

    In that the theme seems to be that there is no "cause" for choices other than what the person imposes upon them self. That true self determination removes all "causes."

    You and I would agree (I hope) that such a freedom is absolutely NOT Scripturally sound thinking.
     
    #30 agedman, Dec 2, 2013
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ok, then let's stick with this. So, you affirm that God could have chosen not to show mercy to Paul (for example)? He was 'free' to refrain from showing mercy? Isn't that contra-causal freedom? Is that logically possible in your mind for God to be free to refrain or not refrain from that given choice?

    If so, what caused it? The only answer is God did, right?

    That is self-determinism, or contra-causal freedom, as I understand it.
     
    #31 Skandelon, Dec 2, 2013
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    According to the web, "contra-causal freedom" is the ability to make a choice without any regard to "causal" factors. The choice is devoid of any natural or unnatural proclivities. As the OP suggests, that is not a "freedom" enjoyed by the Heavenly, nor the Earthly.

    God nor humankind (exception below) cannot choose outside of their nature, and what the web describes as "contra-casual" would be choices without consideration of the nature.


    I put a little twist in the thread later suggesting that the OP actually could make a case that because the believer in the earthly form (not yet "transformed") has a dual nature, they are unique of all creation and even God (not lifting believers above God!!!) because no other has both the nature of the fallen and the nature of the redeemed. Only believers then have the "freedom of choice" - although consequences for choices abound.

    Specifically to your last question(s).

    "Is that logically possible in your mind for God to be free to refrain or not refrain from that given choice?"

    The answer is, of course.

    With this added statement - all choices by God must be within His nature. God cannot lie, because it is not in His nature to lie. God would not have that choice in the set of available choices.

    The OP suggests the same condition is with the unredeemed. They may choose, but from a set of available fallen choices. For it would be outside the nature to choose anything of righteousness.

    Another issue comes from the statements by some suggesting that humankind can choose to do righteously.

    But, remember the young ruler? He followed every commandment - completely (at least that was his statement). But his righteousness did not exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees. Only those born again exceed that fallen standard.
     
    #32 agedman, Dec 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 2, 2013
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