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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Sep 24, 2011.
As per Apostle paul in Romans?
or was that JUST in the past, during time of isreal?
Let's save some time:
Calvinists: Of course.
Noncalvinists: Of course, but they fit themselves, God didn't fit them.
Scandal: They're only temporarily fit for destruction. [Aaron's retort: Tell that to Caiaphas.]
Quantum: Yay, noncalvinists!
2 Timothy 2:
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
Jesus is the great house the real vessel of mercy only in Him are we saved from destruction, because all of us is in a body or vessel of death fit for destruction and only Jesus can save us from it.
Yay!!!! Let me assemble all the mindless cheerleaders......NOT
LOL. That really did make me laugh out loud. You may be quite aggravating sometimes, but you are one of the wittiest people on this board. :thumbsup:
I'm not sure what Caiaphas would have to do with the BIBLICAL view that God has "held out his hands" to rebellious Jews for a very long time (Rm. 10:21) but they have pursued salvation through the law thus stumbling (Rom 9:32) but not stumbling (being hardened) beyond recovery, but may be provoked and saved. (Rm 11:11-14)
Many hardened Jews died in their hardened condition, so what? Did they not deserve it? After all hadn't God "held out his hands to them all day long?" (Rm 10:21) And didn't He "long to gather them like a hen gathers her chicks?" (Matt 23:37) And didn't their rebellion fit them for destruction? God doesn't owe them anything. Never did. But in his mercy he "bounds all men over to disobedience so as to show mercy to them all." Rom 11:32
To understand what Paul was saying in Romans 9, you have to read Jeremiah 18. Here God sends Jeremiah to the potter's house. As Jeremiah watches the potter form a vessel, the vessel is marred in the potter's hands, so the potter crushed the clay and began to form a new vessel.
Then God speaks to Jeremiah and says, "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter?"
Then God explains when he has pronounced evil against a nation or kingdom, if it turn from it's evil , he will repent of the evil he thought to do against them.
Then God says if he speaks of a nation or kingdom, to build it and plant it, if it do evil in his sight, he will repent of the good wherewith he said he would benefit them.
So, Paul is not speaking of unconditional election in Romans 9. He is saying because the Jews have sinned and rejected Christ, he has turned against them, and has gone to the Gentiles who have believed the gospel.
Read Jeremiah 18, THEN you will properly understand what Paul is saying in Romans 9.
Well stated! :thumbsup:
As Paul says, "For this people's [Israel] heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"
The contrast between Israel and the Gentiles is very CLEAR, yet Calvinists insist the 'hardened condition' is something we are all born under. That belief is biblically unfounded.