Does God love all?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Pastor_Bob, Dec 9, 2007.

  1. Pastor_Bob

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    The quote below was offered in a recent thread.
    What does it mean that God "hated" Esau? I submit that it does not mean that God has bitterness and animosity toward him like we would consider hate today.
     
    #1 Pastor_Bob, Dec 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 9, 2007
  2. standingfirminChrist

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    Here is a good explanation of that 'hate', Pastor Bob...

     
  3. Alex Quackenbush

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    If a person treats The Doctrine of Divine Love in ignorance, they will no doubt come to some faulty conclusions regarding HOW God loves.

    The simpleton will ignore the necessity of a categorical and systematic treatment of The Doctrine of Divine Love and usually impose upon it their human experience and sentiment or some poorly defined understanding of a spiritual adolescent being passed off as a sound theologian.
     
  4. Rippon

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    Well PB , you know that I had submitted a number of verses regarding God's hatred of individuals . And of course God's hatred has no sin whatsoever , so no bitterness or personal animosity is involved at all . The Lord does not hate as we do . Although David in his imprecatory prayers uses righteous hatred against individuals .

    But I would hope that you would not regard God's hatred of Esau meaning that He loved Esau less than Jacob . That is not good theology .
     
  5. standingfirminChrist

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    The Greek for the word 'hated' in Romans 9:13 translates it as 'loved less.'

    Why is it not good theology if the Greek translates it as such?
     
  6. TCGreek

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    "Hate" is from the Greek word μισέω and it is our theology which renders it "love less," not the Greek word itself.
     
  7. Rippon

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    All Scripture Is From The HCSB

    SFIC : That Crumpton guy is not much of an exegete .

    Luke 14:26 : If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father and mother , wife and children , brothers and sisters -- yes , even his own life -- he cannot be My disciple .

    The word "hate" is figurative here , but literal in Romans 9:13 and Mal.1:3 . In the Luke passage a comparison is being set forth . A disciple has to love the Lord so much in comparison with earthly relations that Luke used the word "hate" in a striking way to express the idea .

    It is evident that what I brought out in the previous paragraph is true . Look at the parallel passage in Matthew 10:37 : The person who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me ; the person who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of Me .
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

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    As Crumpton pointed out, the word 'hated,' in Romans 9:13 is the same Greek word as the word 'hate' in Luke 14:26.

    Now, surely you don't think Jesus was telling us to hate people in the sense of the word we use today for hate?
     
  9. TCGreek

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    A great explanation! :thumbs:
     
  10. standingfirminChrist

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    God hated the nation, not the individual. The nation had turned to grievous evils.

    But even so, had any one of them turned from their wickedness, God would have saved them.

    Just as today, any lost person who will sincerely turn to God, God will hear... and God will save.

    The drawing promised was from Christ to all men... not some.
     
  11. larryjf

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    We must always take passages within their context.
    Rom 9:13 is quoting an OT passage. The OT passage translates the Hebrew "sawnay" to "hate." This word is a personal hatred as in hating someone who is an enemy.

    It is much different for God to hate someone than it is for us to hate someone, because we don't really know those who are reprobate but God does.

    Christ didn't die for everybody without distinction, but only for those whom the Father would draw to Him. All that the Father gives to Christ will come to Him and not be cast out (Jn 6:37), not some...but all.

    Christ died for all men in the sense that He died for all types of men, not just for the Jews of Israel. The Covenant of God has been expanded from the limited kingdom of the land of Israel, to the world-wide kingdom of the Church through Christ.

    If Christ died for all men without distinction, then all men would be saved, unless His sacrifice didn't actually purchase our redemption but only the possibility of redemption.

    The sacrifice of Christ is effective, not possibly effective...
    to justify - Isa 53:11; Rom 8:34
    to redeem and cleanse from sin - Eph 5:25-27; Tit 2:14
    to propitiate the Father - 1 Jn 2:2; 1 Jn 4:10
    to raise to new life - 2 Cor 5:14-15; 1 Pet 3:18

    The "all" in "all men" refers to...
    all nations - Rev 5:9
    every class - Gal 3:28; 1 Tim 2:1-6

    2 Pet 3:9 the desire is limited to "us"

    The word "all" many times isn't used to mean all without distinction...
    Mat 10:22; 1 Cor 6:12; 1 Cor 15:22; Mat 2:3; Jn 4:29; Act 10:39; Act 17:21; Act 21:28; Act 26:4; Mat 5:11; Act 2:17; Act 10:12

    The word "world" does not always mean every person in the world...
    Lk 2:1-2; Jn 6:33; Jn 12:19; Act 19:27; Rom 1:8
     
  12. larryjf

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    The reason Malachi 1:3 and Rom 9:13 are imporant to this discussion is because of the context that both passages are pointing to.

    The context of Malachi 1:3 is showing the distinction between the people of God (Israel) and those outside of the people of God, even though they were brothers.

    The context of Rom 9:13 is God's sovereign choice of His people. This has direct bearing on the issue, because why would God not choose those He loves?? The point of the passage is that God sovereignly chooses those He loves for salvation while passing over the others. If God is sending those He loves to Hell i would think that would be a problem.
     
  13. standingfirminChrist

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    Jesus did not say "I will draw some men unto me." He said He would draw all.

    You can make such claims that Christ did not mean all when He said all, but I choose to believe Him. All is not some.

    Christ draws all. Not all choose to respond to that drawing. Their choice, their loss.

    It cannot be said that the gift of eternal life and peace in Christ was not offered to them.. that is, unless one wants to deny the Word of God.

    Of course, even if they say Christ did not mean all as in every man woman and child, it does not make it true.

    Whosoever means whosoever. All means all. Whole world meand whole world.

    Christ died for all that all might have eternal life. Scripture does not say they will not come to Him because it is His choice. It says they choose to walk in darkness because their deeds are evil. The gift of light is for all men but not all men want to receive that light.
     
  14. Rippon

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    All Scripture Is From The HCSB

    First of all , the word "men" or "people" does not have an equivalent in the original . English Bibles inserted those words for the convenience of intelligibility . In John 12:32 it could very well have been translated as "all mine to Me" .

    The subject of drawing has to take the pertinent verses of John 6 into account . It is there we are told that "Everyone the Father gives to Me will come to Me" . (v.37) . "That I shall lose none of those He has given" (v.39) . The ones given are the ones drawn . "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" . ( v. 44 ) . "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father." (v.65 ) .

    This drawing is always toward completion . It always savingly unites a person to the Lord . The drawing is not like a magnetic pull which people can spurn . It's not a tug -- it always ends up with the person coming to a saving union with the Lord .

    And , drawing is not toward every member of the human race past , present and future . Just think of the multiplied millions who died and went to Hell even before the Lord's incarnation .
     
  15. trustitl

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    When God says he hated Esau in Romans 9:13 it is a quote for Malachi. He is using it to point out that not everybody that is from the seed of Abraham is a child of promise.

    Rom 9:6 "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God"


    This is not an "unconditional election" to salvation verse as some have misunderstood it to be. God's statement of his hatred toward Esau's descendants, the Edomites, is made hundreds of years after Esau died. He did not choose Jacob because he hated Esau in his mother's womb. Paul is using the fact that his choice to use Jacob to bring Christ had nothing to do with anything Jacob did. The Jews Paul was writing thought they were something special because of their gentic background. Paul wanted to clear that up.

    Rom. 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

    So God truly did hate the Edomites. Look at their history and you will see why. He is talking about nations here not individuals.
     
  16. larryjf

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    So you think that the "all" in these verses means "all without distinction".....

    Mat 10:22 - and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved

    1 Cor 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Jn 4:29 - “Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ?”

    Acts 26:4 - My manner of life from my youth, spent from the beginning among my own nation and in Jerusalem, is known by all the Jews.

    Acts 2:17 - And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
    that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,...
     
  17. larryjf

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    God's word tells us that He hates individuals...

    The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. (Psa 11:5)


    This is not referring to nations, but individual people... "the righteous one" and "the wicked one."

    why would God send those He loves to Hell?
     
  18. standingfirminChrist

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    all means all.
     
  19. larryjf

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    The Bible tells us what Jesus told the Samaritan woman (Jn 4:16-26), and it was not "all" that she ever did as recorded in verse 29.
     
  20. standingfirminChrist

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    What is recorded of Jesus' conversation with that woman may not be all that He told that woman. The world could not contain all the books that could be written of all Jesus said or did. He may have told her all she ever did.

    Or she may have meant all sin she ever committed.

    At any rate, the Word says all... it means all
     

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