Does God love everyone the same?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by ReformedBaptist, Oct 1, 2008.

  1. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
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    This came up in another thread from a gentleman who seemed very offended by the idea. If you do not like the calvinist type discussions, then don't participate.

    My answer is clearly no, God does not love everyone the same. He has chosen some, not all, to set His special and discriminating love upon. I let the uh...discussions...go from here. :laugh:

    RB
     
  2. dan e.

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    I didn't think election had to do with those He loves and those He does not love as much....but those He chose. Isn't that related to the fact that it is unconditional?
     
  3. ReformedBaptist

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    I fully see God's choice as a matter of Him setting His special and discriminating love on some and not others.

    RB
     
  4. abcgrad94

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    RB, if you're talking about me, I'm a lady, not a gentleman. :laugh:

    I don't plan to participate in this debate, but I might read what others have to say. Due to the way I was reared, the whole idea of Calvinism makes me very angry and I do not wish to respond emotionally and say something I might regret later.
     
  5. christianyouth

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    This has been a huge issue for me... If Calvinism is true, that God chose a specific group of people to bestow his love upon and another group of people to bestow wrath upon, then no, God doesn't love all people the same. From a Non-Calvinist perspective, and an OT perspective, it still would seem that God does not love all people the same.

    I think there are some interesting arguments on this. Historic Calvinism affirms that there is a universal love for all creation, but a special love for the elect. This could be true and textual, but it is hard to wrap my mind around the idea of God loving those whom he chose not to save. IE, the vessel of wrath prepared to destruction.

    So, to me, I want to keep a grace based narrative. I don't want to get the idea that because God loves certain people more than others, that makes them more superior then others. My fear in this, is that both Arminianism and Calvinism, in order to be textually faithful, has to affirm that in the OT there is a real conditionality to God's love.

    Psalm 11:5
    The LORD tests the righteous,But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

    Psalm 5:5
    The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;You hate all workers of iniquity.
     
  6. ReformedBaptist

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    Well, you were responding in a very gentlemanly manner...for a lady. :laugh:

    I understand when a topic is emotionally charged for someone we can say rash things. I do that sometimes too. But I thought this thread would allow some discussion on the matter, and may clear some things up for you. I don't know if it will change your mind about calvninism, but I think it can change your opinion about what Calvinists believe.

    So with that, I offer this short comment. I am one of the "hated" Calvinists (I mean that tongue-in-cheek). I am also going on 12 years of marriage to a wonderful woman. Recently we renewed our vows together. I am sure most would agree that marriage is a covenant. Part of my vows to her is that I chose her above all the women the dwell on the face of the earth. By choosing her, and her alone, I have also rejected all other women for the kind of love I will give to her and her alone.

    God said of Israel, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." Amos 3:2

    Some translations translate the word here "known" as chosen. They are translating the word yada in Hebrew. It is the same word used when it is written that Adam "knew" is wife Eve and they bore a child.

    In other words, it conveys the understanding to unique and special intimacy.

    My belief, which I believe the Scripture teaches, is that God has indeed chosen a people. He has entered into a binding covenant of love with those people that is different from the love He has generally for everyone. To God's chosen people He has a special, intimate love.

    RB
     
    #6 ReformedBaptist, Oct 1, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2008
  7. christianyouth

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    RB, well said!
     
  8. ShotGunWillie

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    Usually don't get involved in any of this discussions, but that being said, I think there is a difference between selection and love.
     
  9. ktn4eg

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    It's truly unfortunate that our Engish language has some rather imprecise words that may convey all sorts meanings .

    Does the word "love" when it's used in the expression, "I love pizza," have precisely the exact same meaning that the expression, "I love my spouse"?

    I would hope not.

    IMHO, when it comes to discussing such theological concepts of the doctrines of grace (which is what I prefer to call what generally is termed "Calvinism"), I believe that there is an important difference when it comes to explaining the word "love" in such passages as the well-known verse John 3:16 (For God so loved the world....).

    IOW, John 3:16, is telling us that God loves everyone without distinction, NOT without exception.
     
  10. ShotGunWillie

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    We are instructed to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. But, we are also instructed to not be in fellowship with non-believers.

    Perhaps God truly loves all of us, but because of our unbelief, He doesn't have a relationship with us, therefore, He loves us all, but loves some more???
     
  11. ReformedBaptist

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    As the above person said, it seems to be a struggle with language. The Lord is compassionate to all. He causes His rain to shine on the just and the unjust, the wicked and evil, and the righteous. But His covenant love (relationship) is for the people of His choosing alone.

    RB
     
  12. bobbyd

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    I think God loves tithers and those who take the pastor out for lunch on Sunday the most...:laugh:
     
  13. Benjamin

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    Of course, God’s covenantal love toward all His creatures goes beyond comparison to the shallowness of man’s love. Man chooses a marriage partner based on many aspects, not to exclude expectations, or agreements, and will then selfishly commit himself to the covenant of marriage with that one person whom he has chosen. He will give his love in the limited degree in which he can. But God’s Love is beyond measure, He gives His love in grace alone, freely, with no expectations; He offers His covenant to whosoever will, in faith. God is Love. He loved us (all His creatures) first, unconditionally, and this wonderful, incomparable expression of love and truth is part of His Divine nature seen in the way in which He gave it, in grace to all.



    God’s vow was before even the foundation of this earth, that whosoever would believe, have faith in His covenant, would be chosen in His Son; He did this in truth. God is Truth and God is Love.

    In God’s loving grace for all His creatures He provided this free gift of sacrificial love through revealing Christ to the whole world as a truth. The Way to receive this gift is to believe in it, through faith in His loving way, which is ever strengthened for those who believe because of knowing how great His love is as He freely gives it to all even though they don’t deserve it. I can’t imagine a god who only selfishly gives love to some of his creatures through design, (Contrary to scripture, which HE truthfully called creation “very good”), and then would by predestination force only his specially chosen creatures to love him back. To interpret His love in this limited way may seem humbling to those who feel they were specially chosen without a choice of their own to freely respond back, but it seems to miss the point that love must be in truth and therefore must be freely given.

    Part of His Divine design in placing us on the face of this earth is for us to be able to know how great to His Nature is through the Truth that He IS LOVE. No, God didn’t selfishly limit His love to only part of His creatures; the spirit of His Love is in all the world and toward all His creatures. We are free by design to receive this gift of love and enter into His covenant, or deny the truth of it and claim that we had to be forced. Finally, He does not then reject all others, as man would, and withhold His love, but they have freely rejected Him and His love as a truth. They can only then truly and logically are held responsible for God’s judgments for not entering into His covenant. God’s ways are not man’s or Calvinist's interpretations of those ways.

     
  14. ShotGunWillie

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    So am I right?
     
  15. ReformedBaptist

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    If your agreeing with me, yes. :laugh:
     
  16. ReformedBaptist

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    Ok, I am going to do this one time.

    I sure hope your not married. lol The covenant of marriage is to be a picture of Christ and the Church. Read Ephesians. While I think every marriage falls short of God's glory in this matter, it is to be a reflection.

    Well, at least you got the timing right. lol God chose people before the foundation of the world...not "would be chosen" as in future, based on their forseen faith. This is the lie of the Armininian camp and not only illogical, but unbiblical. Read Ephesians 1 and 2.

    Straw man. God doesn't "force" anyone according to Calvinist teaching. All this board is gotten from you so far is carnal reasoning and strawmen arguments. Perhaps the simple-minded are dazzled by your many words.

    Read Romans 8.

    Do you just make this stuff up as you go along? I percieve that you neither understand the love of God nor His justice. This Valentine god skipping accross the clouds image that you paint here is pathetic.

    Behold, BB, the spectre of carnal reasoning committed to libertarian freewill and a santa clause diety.

    RB
     
  17. Benjamin

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    Hmm, that’s what a Calvinist marriage is like, huh? “Me chose you. Got club, got you by hair, will travel, then drag you to cave. Ug.”




    Think you should take off those Calvinist glasses and carefully read Ephesians yourself. You almost most got it if you’re saying it is based on forseen faith alone, but it is certainly no lie that the Calvinist’ conclusion’ is that it is based on predestinated faith. That is why you logically reject to the phrase “would be chosen” because you will need to twist your way out of “In Him” (Eph 1:4). News Flash! The following verse lays the responsibility on the future “ye” actions.

    (Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

    Ah, “ye” means “you”. That is how responsibility logically falls on the “You” in God’s judgment, if “you” were chosen by God in design before creation then “you” would have no choice and God would be responsible for “your” actions. Would a just God judge “you” for His actions? Explain “your” logic here.


    Maybe “we” can discuss my “carnal” interpretations, strawman, unbiblicalness, and dazzling words a little more later, got to go for now.

    You can work on this while I’m gone:

    (Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.
     
  18. Dr. Bob

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    Love? Generally, yes. Even I (a poor creature) love my enemies. I am sure that sort of love is in the nature of God Himself.

    Saving love? Special love for His chosen ones? That is a different sort of love than the general love, and is reserved for the elect. He "knew" us (knew = intimate relationship, as in Adam knew Eve and she bore a son) as the Bride for His Son in eternity past.

    I love many of you on the BB (not all, mind you; don't get a big head). But not the same way I love my wife, my 3 kids or 10+ grandkids. :laugh:
     
  19. ReformedBaptist

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    Well, I shared your reply with my wife and she said your a sick-o. hahahaha. She said to take your caveman ideas to another time. hahahaha. Women are better at replying than I am. This is how us calvinists seek to live in our marriage...

    22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

    23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

    24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

    25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

    26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

    27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

    29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

    30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

    31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

    32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

    33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.



    Actually, it was reading Ephesians and other Scripture that put those glasses on my face! Hallelujah. Ephesians 1:4 says, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: " Would you have expected God's choice to save a people for His own possession to be outside of Jesus Christ? This reply from the Arminians about "in him" always strikes me as odd. Of course salvation is in Christ.

    God is the one choosing. God is choosing before the world began. God chose a people (us, believers). God chose us in Christ. I don't need a news flash...just a simple understanding of the english language.

    Actually, "ye" means "y'all" to put it in southern terms. It's plural. Your question is probably one of the most ridiculous I have seen in a long, long time. First, you present me with a strawman argument out of your own mind, ascribe it me, and then ask me to explain my logic! It's not my logic! You explain your own strawmen...

    I will be glad to help you in any way I can.

    And to begin your tuteliage, where in any calvinist theology, teaching, exposition, does it teach that men do nothing? Don't give another strawmen...your already up to more than I can count. lol Do a little research. Go out, grab you a known calvinist teacher, and show me in their writings, a systemtatic theology, and exposition of Scripture...anything....that makes the assertion that you are charging of calvinists.

    If you cannot, sir, you have admitted to your strawman.

    RB
     
  20. ray Marshall

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    Everyone should know this: Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated.
    Someone may say, well he just didn't love Esau as much as he did Jacob.on the other hand you could say that He didn't hate Jacob as much as he hated Esau.

    It isn't none of our business if GOD does not love everybody.That's his business and none of our own.
     

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