Does God love the non-elect?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Soulman, Jun 5, 2005.

  1. Soulman

    Soulman
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    You say He does. But as a Calvanist I don't believe you. A Calvanist has very little patience with the lost. You giv em your little test gospel and if they don't respond favorably you figure they are lost and not worth your time.

    Calvanists for the most part are very lazy when it comes to spreading the word. Figuring that if they are elect God will get em saved.

    What if I really want to get saved and confess my sins to Jesus, ask Him to forgive me but am not elect? If Jesus died for me, why can't I get saved? Doesn't God love me??

    Your theology seems like exclusivisim to me.

    I know this is stereotypical but whats your response?
     
  2. icthus

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    Soulman, speaking as a non-Calvinist, I think that your view as expressed here is not true. I would not agree with you that when it comes to spreading the Word, that Calvinists are lazy. The majority of missionaries that have been sent out to spread the Word, have been from Calvinistic Churches. Further, those Churches that do send out "missionaries", like the Pentecostals, etc, preach "another Gospel", where their emphasis is not on the Word of God, but on how many souls they have led to Christ. The problem with most Churches who are involved in Evangelism, is that they are inward looking, and more interested in the number of "converts" they have, than, whether these "converts" are really born-again. Another problem with these Churches, is that they place too much emphasis on what they are doing for God, than what God is doing through them.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    It is only Arminians that say "God So Loved the World... REALLY"


    #1. Calvinists USE ARMINIAN methods to evangelize because they KNOW Calvinism DOES NOT WORK!

    #2. That means BOTH CAlvinists and Arminians EVANGELIZE by pleading with the lost to ACCEPT Christ NOW while it is not too late! They both argue that GOD LOVES the lost and wants each of them to come to Jesus now!

    #3. What Calivnists DON't Say is the TRUTH OF CALVINISM - THey DON't say "God ONLY LOVES the FEW of Matt 7. And some of those FEW just might so happen to be HERE today. NOTHING I say here and NOTHING YOU CHOOSE here will change that NOR will it change whether God decides to actually care for YOU or your FAMILY. That is all in the mind of God ONLY.

    NOW having told the truth plainly let us quietly watch and SEE if God will just so happen to CAUSE some of you to walk forward and be saved right now".

    Nope - CAlvinism would NEVER work in evangelism so Calvinists USE ARMINIANISM to evangelize!!

    #4. BECAUSE Arminians view the system as a matter of CHOICE - they approach the lost as if they are a market that needs to be convinced/pursuaded/continually-invited until one day they give in and CHOOSE to come to Christ. "WE BEG YOU on behalf of Christ BE RECONCILED to God" 2 Cor 5.

    Obviously.

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. johnp.

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    Hello Bob.
    Really? Amazing to see love fail after He said love never fails. You show how ignorant you are of love that's all or He is. Love never fails. Look at that, you have me being bold. Love never fails.
    1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
    1CO 13:8 Love never fails...

    God said that above. It was God that said love always protects. You err. Love does not keep a record of wrongs you are universalist. :cool: Don't meet many of them. "God So Loved the World... REALLY" No record kept Bob you are a universalist. HaHa! Everybody gets to go to Heaven! Real good news at last 'a'? Bet you didn't think of yourself in this way 'a'?

    So you claim to know the Almighty yet you do not understand love? By their fruit you shall know them. GAL 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love... What say you?

    Love is not a feeling it is a commitment. God loves me with a commitment absolute. That's love, that He loves me. I bank on that love to be One Sided. 1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
    1CO 13:8 Love never fails...

    So we have a God that loves and sends the objects of His love to Hell and proceeds to torture them forever and ever? What is that love worth? Nothing. Some god I'd say. My God is my Rock and my Salvation. Praise Him.
    What is this poor old god of yours going to do with the rest of forever with unrequited love? If it is love then He must satisfy love. Love never fails. Universalism. You have a problem. You appear to be an Arminian no longer. :cool: If that's a problem. :cool:

    God hates those not chosen.

    john.
     
  5. Scott J

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    Is this something you have assumed or something you have proof for?

    Notable Calvinists who do not fit your bill would include Spurgeon, Knox, Jonathan Edwards, and more recently MacArthur and Piper.

    If you "really want to" in a way that you cannot escape... then you are one of the elect. Under Calvinist thought, the only reason you would have such a desire is if the Holy Spirit planted it there. Otherwise, you would continue on your own self-willed, self-absorbed path to destruction.

    Non-calvinists don't really escape these types of questions unless they adopt open theism. What if someone would be willing to accept the gospel if God would just send someone to tell them about it?

    BTW, if you "really want to" and you disagree with the Calvinist contention that God caused that desire, why do you "really want to" while the guy next to you doesn't "really want to"?

    Are you better than him at making evaluations and decisions? If you are both drawn alike as Bob and others contend here then the difference must be YOUR attributes, choices, actions, etc. If that is the case then it is not the unmerited favor of God through faith that saves but rather the merited favor of God through faith that saves.
    Why didn't Jesus heal every person in the world? Didn't God love them all?

    Why have some people lived and died without hearing the gospel? Didn't God love them?

    Salvation is exclusive unless you adopt universalism or open theism.

    The question between calvinists and arminians is how are those who are included determined. Both agree that the gospel goes out to people who will remain lost. Both agree that those who refuse the gospel or even the general revelation of God in nature will go to hell. Both agree that man is brought to God through faith in Jesus Christ.

    The difference pertinent to your post is how we explain why some people get saved while others don't. What is the prime cause?
     
  6. whetstone

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    wow this thread is a waste of time.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    #1. I said this is "The difference" between Arminian and Calvinists. The fact that you reject the fact that "God So Loved the World" -- simply proves it. (By the way - God said that).

    #2. You "interpret" Love "Failing" when you see Lucifer fall, or Adam fall or Eve fall - OR ELSE you claim that "God made them fail".

    Either way - it is error on your part.

    You "define" the fall of Adam as "Love failing OR GOd making a sinless being fall" as IF either one of those two errors is better than the other.

    They are both wrong.


    "God so Loved the World"

    And now to paraphrase "you" --
    God said that above. It was God that said "God So Loved the World". You err.

    And you have not met one here.

    "God So Loved the World... REALLY"

    Another "error" so quickly on the heels of the last two??

    In Daniel 7 God has the books of record opened and the saints are judged OUT of the things written in the books until "Judgment is passed IN FAVOR of the saints".

    In Matt 7 Christ said that the saints are KNOWN by their fruits - a "record" of what "they do".

    In 2 Cor 5 the saints are judged "According to their DEEDS whether they be good OR evil".

    Your "no records in heaven regarding the saints" is in error. So Also your idea that "only good deeds" are on record -- debunked in 2Cor 5. (And also in Romans 2 and 1Cor 6 and Gal 6 and ...)


    You win that one every time. I almost never think of the angles you use.


    #1. I did not say that - you did.

    #2. Rev 14:10 says that all that torment takes place "IN the PRESENCE of the LAMB and of His holy ones" so you will be there to watch every second of it "in your presence" along with Christ's.

    Imagine watching a loved one in torment "for every second" they suffer??!! It will be "IN the PRESENCE" of the Lamb and of his holy ones!!

    And by "chosen" you mean "arbitrarily selected" as the "Calvinist Future Scenario" points out. (IN that case YOU are selected to be IN but your precious child -- out)

    A facinating concept of God you have there.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Bob Krajcik

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    Wrath is averted and God’s love is freely bestowed on His chosen, for Christ is the propitiation for their sins. Salvation is of the Lord (2Cor 5:19; Rom 1:18; 3:25; 4:15; 7:6; Gal 3:11,13; 2Cor 3:13; Eph 2:15; Eph 1:4; Tit 1:2; 1Pet 1:19-20; Rev 5:12; Eph 2:8). Men will brag of their own works, trampling under foot the blood of Christ, claiming it is their mind, their decision, something they have done, that has turned God’s wrath away. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of God’s people, those chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the earth, and for them the blood averts God’s wrath. To those God’s love is freely imparted (Isa 53:6; Rom 5:8-10; Rev 5:12; 13:8; Eph 1:6-8; 2:4-5; Tit 3:3-5; 1Joh 3:1, 16; 4:9-10). Those that believe have the testimony in themselves, with faith the gift of God (John 6:28-29; Acts 18:27; Romans 3:22; 10:17; 12:3; Galatians 2:16,20; 5:22; Ephesians 1:19; 2:8; Philippians 1:29; Hebrews 12:2), wrought in man by the operation of God.


    By grace,
    Bob Krajcik
    Mansfield, Ohio
     
  9. TexasSky

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    The bible says that God cares about the birds in the air, and that He created man in His image. I think He loves and cares about all, but like a parent who loves the disobedient child, He knows some of us will just ignore Him.
     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

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    1. Your statement of judgment seems very general and vague which can often lead to defamation. Can you give me a specific example of a lazy Calvinist, or is this just your view which is born in disdain of Calvinist? Most Calvinists I know hold a high view of God, his Word, and of his great commission.

    2. It is not for to decide who is going to be saved or not. That is the Soveriegn Lord's decision. My job is to be obedient to his Word which is why I continue to faithfully share the Word of God to others as I have been commanded to do.

    3. The Bible has an exclusive theology, and so does God, otherwise there would be no heaven AND a Hell. Otherwise, everyone would be saved. Otherwise, everyone would enter the narrow door.

    4. You're right. This is very sterotypical and innacurate.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  11. johnp.

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    Hello Bob.
    I've noticed that about myself thanks Bob. Askew? You or me? Mind you it might be, everyone else or me! :cool: I don't know.

    So we have a God that loves and sends the objects of His love to Hell and proceeds to torture them forever and ever? What is that love worth? Nothing.
    #1. I did not say that - you did.
    I know. :cool: Does He love those He sends to Hell Bob? Yes or no will do.
    #2. Rev 14:10 says that all that torment takes place "IN the PRESENCE of the LAMB and of His holy ones" so you will be there to watch every second of it "in your presence" along with Christ's.
    Yea great. As He pleases but does He love those He sends to Hell? Yes or no? Simple enough isn't it?

    You are in trouble I see. :cool: Answer the questions please.

    1 Cor 13:5 It [Love] is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. is what I said.
    I have no good deeds whatsoever whoever suggested I was selfrighteous? Any good I might have ever done was purely accidental I can assure you of that. I am as selfish as the next man. A sinner justified and a sinner still praise the Lord.

    You are publicising it well I must say.
    My children and their children have been promised me. They are safe.
    EZE 37:24 " `My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever.

    Chosen. Elected. Selected. Picked out as opposed to not picked nor chosen nor elected nor selected. Regarded as opposed to discarded. Harsh to the ear that?

    My children and their children have been promised me. They are safe.
    That is Calvinism. Orthodox at last praise the Lord! :cool:

    john.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Indeed - we expect to differ since you are Calvinist and I am Arminian.

    So this really is not a complaint on my part.

    So "say on".

    Bob said --
    #1. I did not say that - you did.

    Absolutely yes! In fact HE WEEPS over them and "ALL His compassions are stirred up within Him over their suffering and loss".

    The Arminian God says "God so LOVED the WORLD that HE gave... yes REALLY!"

    And the Arminian God says of that PART of the WORLD that is lost and will not choose life -- that He weeps over them and is in anguish over them!

    Lament over Jerusalem
    God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.
    God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.
    ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

    </font>[/QUOTE]On the other hand - the Calvinist God merely "hates them" to quote John P.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    That is pretty interesting GOD claims "Nor did it enter my Mind that they should DO this abomination" yet John P insists GOD not only KNEW it HE AUTHORED their rebellion. The MOST the wicked can claim (in that sovereign universe John P draws for us) is that they are merely following their orders - direct from the despot himself.

    And so I keep asking John "are you talking about God or Satan"?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

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    JohnP --

    You keep choking on this one.

    I say that because John P said --

    Still - I think Paul is correct about what gets judged at the "Judgement seat of Christ" (deeds BOTH the good AND the bad) and WHO is getting judged.

    You claim they can not possibly do that.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. David Michael Harris

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    One day people will understand God, but not before the end I think...
     
  16. Soulman

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    Joseph_Botwinick: Can you give me a specific example of a lazy Calvinist, or is this just your view which is born in disdain of Calvinist?

    Yes Joseph, I used to be a calvanist. The church I was in had about 4 people that would go door knocking. Most were too caught up in deep theology. Thinking they were really enriching themselves by taking on 6 week studies etc. The people that walked in were spoken to about salvation. You had to show you really were saved for about 6 months before you were allowed to join or be baptized.

    I found this to be a joke and not of Gods' character.

    If Adam had a choice and Jesus is the second Adam sent here for our restoration, then we have the same choice. For God so loved....REALLY!! I would not want to serve a God that was so unjust as to not allow people to have the same opportunity to come to Him. Calvanist doctrine is weak at best. You are so wicked that you will naturally reject Christ you say. Only God changes the heart.

    There are too many verses in the bible giving us a chouice to serve God or not. I believe a just God allows us all to make that choice. Otherwise he is unjust in holding man accountable. The supposed unsaved didn't ask to be born to damnation nor to be confused with jibberish that God loves him.

    God does love us. He wants that none should perish. It would be a little disingenuousto sai I love you but you don't get to go to heaven. I don't buy it. Calvanisim is dangerous!
     
  17. Soulman

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  18. johnp.

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    I've seen 'bump' before what's it about Soulman if you don't mind me asking. Thanks.

    john.
     
  19. Pipedude

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    Arthur Pink, in The Sovereignty of God, said of the lost in Hell "He never loved them."

    Pink is usually right.
     
  20. TexasSky

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    Interesting thread. The views expressed by some here are exactly the same view that athiests express when I am wittnessing to them. That actually worries me. In fact, it breaks my hearts to see people claiming to be Christians arguing for the view that God doesn't love.

    God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish.

    As someone else pointed out, love is enduring.

    God is the Alpha and the Omega.

    The bible says, often, He gave people over to their wickedness. It also says, often, He celebrates when they repent.

    He was going to destroy the city if 50 good men weren't found. Then agreed to spare it if 40 could. Then finally if even 10 could.. doesn't sound much like a God who "didn't love" and "wanted them in hell" to me.

    The God I know IS the love.

    He is forgiving.
    He is self-sacrificing for our sake for He gave HIMSELF for us.
    He gave us a perfect paradise and we walked out of it.
    He gave us a NEW perfect world when He clensed the earth after the flood. We messed that one up to.
    He saved His people from slavery and they built a golden cave in repayment.
    He gave us Christ - and you people say, "He didn't love the lost."

    Why did He send Christ if He didn't love the lost?

    How can you call yourself a Christian when you are calling Christ a liar?
     

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