Does God Love Those In Hell?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by KenH, Sep 15, 2002.

  1. KenH

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    For those who have been battering we Calvinists about how they think we are making God out to be mean, do you believe that God loves those people who are currently in hell? Do you believe that God would punish forever and ever and ever and ever those that He loves to the point of shedding His blood for their sins?

    If your child misbehaves, would you spank him for the next, say, 50 years continuously, while all the time saying how much you love him?

    Maybe some folks have been trying to place the shoe on the wrong foot in this forum. [​IMG]

    Ken

    [ September 15, 2002, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Ken,

    Excellent Point!!!

    If you look on the "Other Religions" folder you will see two subjects started.


    #1. The communion of Saints, Prayers to the Dead.

    #2. Immortal Soul, vs Immortal God alone


    You have exposed the flaw in my complaint about Calvinism. Because NOT ONLY would it be hard to swallow Calvinism's God saying "Sure if I had CARED to" when confronted with the question "Oh My God, My Lord and Savior - see my child my child suffering in agony - oh couldn't you have DONE SOMETHING to save them - I would freely give anything for their well being"...

    It would also be hard (or possibly JUST as hard) to watch the eternal writhing and agony of your child in that sinnless eternity of love and compassion where love and selfless concern for others is 100 times what it ever could be here.

    So solving the problems of Calvinism's eternity would only be half the job. You would also need to know for "dead sure" what God is going to do with your loved ones who are in hell - for whatever reason.

    You also make a good point (or seem close to making it) that IF God were already roasting millions of wicked souls in hell by the time Christ comes on the scene - why die for them? At a maximum (if He is going to die for the sins of the whole world) He should just die for the ones that are to live from then on- those whom He is not already roasting in the fires of hell.

    I say again - bravo! There truly is the horns of a dilemma for us Arminians to work out. We do not escape the entire problem by simply noting the flaws of Calvinism in that eternal future.

    (Of course ADDING the flaws of Calvinism to our current dilemma does nothing to lessen it or solve it).

    And of course - in the Arminian system God "DOES" love those in Hell in His "So loving the World" for He says "I take no pleasure in the death of ANYONE - rather TURN to Me and LIVE". He says "OH HOW can I give you up??" "ALL my Compassions are turned within Me". He speaks the truth when He says He is "Not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance".

    Arminians have no choice in this matter - God DOES love those in Hell. So then - WHEN is Hell and How long is it?

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ September 15, 2002, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  3. KenH

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    Thank you, Brother Bob, for your candidness in admitting this is the position in the Arminian viewpoint. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  4. ForumChaplain

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    Excellant question Ken, I was hoping that you could resolve this one. I claim neither Calvin nor Arminus as a source of doctrine, yet i still wrestle with this one....

    Does not the bible say that the memory of them will be blotted out of heaven. (Itsa question) I hope for universalism, yet the scriptures will not allow me to believe....
     
  5. BobRyan

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    On the "other denominations" folder there is an active thread on immortal soul and prayers to the dead.

    If God is really "so loving the World" - and if that includes the wicked - we have to ask the question about His treatment of those in hell. It is a good one.

    And it DOES have a good Arminian answer.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Ray Berrian

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    Psalm 7:11 suggests that the Lord ' . . . is angry with the wicked every day.' I am sure that after the Great White Throne Judgment of the wicked His feelings will remain the same forever. If not, then after 20,000 years He would release them.

    After so great a cost, having died for all human beings [I John 2:1] and after their rebellion in this life time they will be without excuse. They could have turned from the sins as noted in [Psalm 7:12] having had a free will, [John 3:16] now the Lord will 'wet His sword and strike the lost with an everlasting vengeance. John the Revelator calls this experience 'the second death,' which is being cast into the Lake of Fire.

    If saints come to everlasting life in Heaven, you can rest assured that the rebellious sinners will not enjoy their expedited tour to the gates of Hell nor their eternal abode there. :cool:
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    According to Jesus it is better to cut off your hand if it is going to be the reason for you ending up in Hell. He calls this place Hell and says, that the fire ' . . . shall never be quenched . . . . where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.' [Mark 9:45 & 48] Are there any Arminians or Calvinists who do believe what Jesus said?

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Joe Turner

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    John 3:16 "For God so LOVED the world...". God loved the world at calvary. No where does it say in the Bible that God LOVES the world. If you do not ask Christ to be your saviour, God doesn't know you (Matthew 7:22-23). [​IMG]
     
  9. BobRyan

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    God so loved the World that He Gave His only Son -

    Before they got to Calvary "While we were yet sinners" Christ died for us.

    Before Christ Got to Calvary - God "Gave" His son - "WHo emptied himself" Phil 2 and was found in the form of a man. At the incarnation - God "Gave His son" - not just at the cross.

    And long after the cross - God continues to So Love the World and to Give "And not willing for Any to Perish but for all" (of those not already at the foot of the cross) "To come to repentance".

    "AS I live says the Lord I take NO pleasure in the death of ANYONE". Not even in the death of your own precious daughter suffering in hell.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. ForumChaplain

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    In response to the topic of this thread, I have given it some more thought.

    On the other end of the specturim from does God love those that are in hell, is the question; does God hate those that are in hell.

    I would say that long before God created man, his sense of justice was in place and well defined. It was never God's intent that his creation be subjected to his sense of justice. Yet our sin caused it to be so.

    I am reminded of a judge that has the responsibility to sentence a man to death, because that is what the law requires. Does he rejoice or simply do what is necessary.

    Anger is an emotion that is designed to protect ones physical and emotional wellbeing. In God's hands it is one of the attributes of love. When someone that we love harms us, we get angry. Tho it is not one that shelters the object of ones affection, but rather the one giving that affection.

    I do not believe that God is angry forever, anger is not one of God's immutable qualites. When God is angry, we can turn him from his anger through true repentance and obedience.

    [ September 22, 2002, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  11. Ray Berrian

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    The future of those who resist the Holy Spirit is not nice. His justice will never change toward a sinner who ends up in Hell, as all do. [Hebrews 10:29-31] Christ's vengeance is terrible and 'it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.' Just as God gives eternal security in Heaven; He also gives 'eternal security' in Hell. Perhaps a bad analogy . . . but true nevertheless. :(
     
  12. ForumChaplain

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    Amen!!!!
     
  13. BobRyan

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    God's Word does state that
    'He is not angry forever'.

    Infinite suffering is infinite suffering no matter how nice a face you put on it.

    Luke 12:47 says that God will cause those who knew the truth and still chose rebellion - to suffer much - but those who did not know it will receive few "lashes".

    In Matt 18 we are told that we will end up paying the very last cent of our sentence in hell.

    The Immortal soul and immortal God thread on the Other Denominations folder of this board is exploring that.

    The bottom line is that your precious daughter is loved by God and EVEN if she chooses death - the punishment will be just - and will be proportional - handing out infinite torment to all is not the model that you see in Luke 12:47.

    Yes - God loves EVEN those in Hell.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Ray Berrian

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    Joe Turner,

    I agree with your post.

    Those who do not believe and/or reach out in faith toward Jesus will be lost forever. A very sobering thought any day of the week.

    Welcome to the Baptist Board.
     
  15. ForumChaplain

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    Please delete.

    [ September 24, 2002, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  16. ForumChaplain

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    That's my God.. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  17. KenH

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    (Psalm 5:5 NKJV) The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.

    (Psalm 11:5 NKJV) The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
     
  18. ForumChaplain

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    In reality, it is our sin that God hates, as evidenced by the fact that when we turn from out iniquity; God is willing to forgive our sins and embrace us as his own.
    HATE, HATRED
    Strong dislike, disregard, or even indifference toward someone or something. As such, hate may be seated in a person's emotions or will. Various degrees and types of hatred are described in the Bible. This makes it difficult to define hatred in simple, absolute terms.

    The people of God are to hate what God Himself hates with an absolute hatred-- sin <Deut. 12:31; Is. 61:8; Heb. 1:9>. But God is also said to hate human beings, as when He declared, "Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated" <Rom. 9:13>. This is a relative hatred. It is not the opposite of love but a diminished love. God loved Jacob so much that He chose him to become the father of the nation Israel; He did not love Esau in the same way.

    To hate our relatives for the sake of Christ <Luke 14:26> means to love them less than we love Christ <Matt. 10:37>; it does not mean to hate them absolutely. Believers ought to love their enemies <Matt. 5:43-44> but hate their enemies' sins <Eph. 5:3-14; Rev. 2:6>.

    Wicked people, living under the power of Satan, will hate the Lord Jesus, His followers, and their righteous deeds <John 3:20; 8:44>. It is the Christian's duty not to strike back but to do good to his enemies <Matt. 4:43-44; Luke 6:27>.
    (from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary)
    (Copyright (C) 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

    [ September 24, 2002, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  19. KenH

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    I take God at His Word. If His Word says "hate" then I am willing to accept the word used at face value. If the Bible meant "love less" I am confident that the Holy Spirit would have had the writer to use the phrase "love less". I have no interest in re-doing what the Holy Spirit had written because it may offend someone's preconceptions about God.

    So unless God gives us a new Bible, I will stick to quoting the word "hate" in Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, and anywhere else the Holy Spirit had the word used in the Bible, and I will let the word "hate" stand as it is in its plain meaning. I will not attempt to explain it away simply because I don't like it being used where it is or because it runs counter to my theological position.

    Christian regards,

    Ken [​IMG]
     
  20. ForumChaplain

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    Now that's a good idea, even if you are reading Calvin or Spurgeon. You'll get no arguments from me on that.....
     

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