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Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Nov 25, 2013.
Does He "owe" it to ANY sinner?
I don't know, does God owe anybody money?
My father said to answer a stupid question with a stupid answer. This was one of those occasions.
But you didn't give an answer. Is God under any obligation to dispense salvation to all?
So the Lord is required to save all sinners, that He MUST under obligation offer that to all?
Did I say that? Funny, I don't remember saying that. Let me go back and look what I wrote.....................
Nope, I never said that.
So you are not the kind of guy who holds God accountable for not allowing some to even hear the Gospel or knowing about Christ --right?
God doesn't have to give everyone a "chance" --right?
I try not to tell God what he has to do.
That said, God said to owe no man any thing but to love one another;
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Now, God does not owe any man salvation, but I happen to believe God is not a hypocrite, and that God lives by his own rules. Therefore God must love every man and would desire every man to be saved.
That said, God himself could save man only one way, and that is through his Son Jesus Christ. God offers salvation to all, but men must submit and trust Jesus Christ to be saved.
So, unfortunately, men who rebel against God and reject Jesus Christ must pay for their own sins. God takes no pleasure in this, but the man has made his choice.
You are either having severe problems with sentence structure (which is most likely the case given your history) or severe problems in logic.
Who ever said God owed anyone anything or that He is under obligation to do so?
Which by the way does not prove calvinism
Some here seem to hold that God MUST offer same to all sinners, that all must be given same opportunity, and they would be deciding their own destiny by 'free will!"
No. He doesn't even owe it to those who believe and repent.
We are either on board with God through Jesus Christ or you are not. There is no middle ground. God does not owe any one salvation so you are not on board with God you will die in your sins. So those who never hear the Gospel could not be saved, so that is the reason Jesus had first fruits to start the Gospel spreading. We are the one cursed to work the field. We are to plant and water and God makes it grow. I believe infants are in rest and can't work so they are already in His rest. Our God is not named molek. We are the ones called to spread message of reconciliation through Jesus Christ.
Who said He is under any such obligation? You asked a question that demands a "No" answer.
I do not know of anyone who believes He must but many of us believe He does regardless of where one stand on "must".
Two posters have used the term "die in sins."
Would you share how Peter got it wrong.18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
Sure, Christ said as recorded by John:21 Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews were saying, “Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
However, in comparing Scripture with Scriptures, one cannot escape what John (who had first hand knowledge and sight of the events of the cross) in application to the matter of the death:My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation (blood payment) for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
So then, what is this "die in sins?"
It must be understood in the matter of a lack of atonement (reconciliation) and not the blood payment made in full.
No "sins" condemns a person to the lake of fire, but the lack of being recorded in the "lambs book of life."
There is one sin - that of unbelief.
And that is what Christ was stating, too.
When one reads carefully the statement of Christ in John - it is couched in terms that "unless you believe" the person is "condemned already" (john 3).
For those who don't know, the Greek word for "sin" means: harm, offend
What is the greatest harm or offense one can have toward God?
Being unresponsive to the call of God for reconciliation (atonement).
Better question -- Does God have to be true to HIS WORD?
"God so LOVED the World that HE Gave" - John 3
"God is NOT willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance". 2Peter 3
God gave His Son as the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2
Calvinsts like to play the game of asking what God was thinking BEFORE He wrote the Bible, BEFORE He chose the plan of salvation, BEFORE He selected the idea of being true to His Word.
And at that point ask "Did God HAVE to offer salvation to anyone, or to ...?"
Obviously going back to that point in time - God could do whatever He wanted.
But we are far beyond that infinite time in the past. We are now at the point where the WORD of God is written and His promises already selected and given. So NOW the question is "does God have to be TRUE to His Word" to be Righteous and Just?
Turns out that is an easy answer.
Well then - does God "need" Calvinists to run right behind him and "clean up" all his wonderful promises - so as to "down size them" to fit Calvinisms limited-scope-Gospel ideas?
Turns out - God does not need that.
There is a big difference to die in our sins in Christ to be crucified with Him buried and be raised to walk a new life in Christ and to die in our sin apart from Christ.
We must die to be born again to become the new creation and we are born again regenerated by His word.
We must become a new creation and let what we were die in sin and be alive in Christ.
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.