Does God predestine .....

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by All about Grace, Apr 1, 2003.

  1. All about Grace

    All about Grace
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    disobedience?

    As Christians who still live in and battle the sinful flesh, does God predestine disobedience?

    If your answer to number 1 is yes, then answer question 2: Does disobedience bring glory to God?
     
  2. npetreley

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    Yes.

    Yes.
     
  3. Yelsew

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    What glory can exist without conflict?
     
  4. russell55

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    The answer to this depends a whole lot on how you are using the word "predestine". What do you mean by it?

    Do you mean that God decides beforehand to not prevent a disobedient act because He has a good reason to include that act in His plan for human history?

    Or do you include in the meaning of "predestine" only those things that God actively works? Things he brings about by the active work of the Holy Spirit?

    But I think it is clear anyway that both disobedience and obedience bring glory to God. If people were not disobedient, then we would not know the extent of His graciousness, and magnifying His graciousness brings Him glory. (Eph 1:6) Making disobedient people into obedient people brings Him glory by showing "the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." (Eph 2).

    Specific disobedient acts bring about good things in God's good plan; for instance, the crucifixion (Acts 2:22-24; 4:27,28); and the judgment of disobedient Israel (Isaiah 10).
     
  5. tyndale1946

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    Let no man say when he is tempted I am tempted of God for God tempteth no man... Predestinate means... A destination afore time... God predestinated all his children to glory... His elect that he gave his son Jesus Christ to save before the world was created... The son will draw all the Father gave him to himself and not lose a one... And will save them only.

    Since all mankind fell in our federal head Adam even though those elected were affected in the fall and had to die... For by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin so that death passed upon all men for that all have sinned... The elected are secure in Jesus Christ... Chosen from the race of mankind... Not according to race but by God's Grace.

    God didn't predestinate those to hell since we were all headed there by Adams sin... He did no unjustice to them he just left them where they were. We have those among the Primitive Baptist Brethren... These are strong in the eastern part of the country called Absolute Predestinators... Or as they are called Absoluters... These brethren believe everything whether good or evil is predestinated by God.

    God will always have the glory in obedience or disobedience... But unless the scripture say they are not his... They are his children though disobedient ones... How many times have you been to God's Holy Woodshed?... Speaking of disobedience in the natural realm... Did your natural father ever cause your disobedience?... If you were disobedient did you ever cease to be his child?... Is our heavenly Father any different?... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
  6. npetreley

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    IMO, this is unrelated to the issue. What connection are you making here?
     
  7. tyndale1946

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    God does not predestine disobedience!... Is the only point I'm making... Disobedience comes only from one source... Ephesians 2:2-3... Where at one time we all walked!... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
  8. All about Grace

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    Does God predestine sin?

    If a believer commits adultery, was it predestined for him/her to do so?

    Is God glorified in adultery?
     
  9. Frogman

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    God is not glorified in our sin, neither does he predestine these. Yet, when we do repent as a result of His chastisement, He is definitely glorified in the resultant life we attempt to live.

    Was God glorified in the evil the brothers of Joseph committed against him? Or was this not sin?

    I know a couple who faced the situation which is mentioned above; the same question was also dealt with in which each party assumed the sin was entered into because of the predestination of God; How can this be? When as brother Glen points out to us that sin issues from the desires of the heart of man which is sinful. No, God is not to be charged with my sin(s) nor my sinful tendencies, He is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

    Bro. Dallas

    Bro. Dallas
     
  10. William C

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    IMO, this is unrelated to the issue. What connection are you making here? </font>[/QUOTE]If the scripture clearly teaches that God doesn't even tempt man to sin then surely we can say that he doesn't cause man to sin.

    You see your inconsistancy is that you say God predestines man to choose Christ as in He causes them to choose Christ, but then you also use the same word "predestine" in regard to man's choice to reject Christ in disobeidence as if God also in the cause of that choice.

    You make God out to be the cause of man's sin and damnation when scripture clearly teaches that God doesn't even tempt men, much less cause them to sin.
     
  11. npetreley

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    IMO, tempting people is not the same as predestining disobedience, so I don't see the connection.
     
  12. npetreley

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    Non-sequitur.

    You assume that if God does not directly tempt man, He would not be the ultimate cause of sin. But one does not necessarily follow the other.

    Let's take an even more extreme example. The Bible says it is impossible for God to lie - it doesn't say God doesn't lie, but that it is impossible. That's a lot stronger statement than to say that God does not tempt anyone.

    Hebrews 6:18 it is impossible for God to lie

    Yet look at what God does here...

    1 Kings 22:21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, "I will persuade him.' 22 The LORD said to him, "In what way?' So he said, "I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the LORD said, "You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.' 23 Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you."

    In 1 Kings (and 2 Chronicles) God approves a spirit's plan to influence false prophets to lie. Who has done it? The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets.

    Let God out of your puny man-sized box.
     
  13. npetreley

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    No, but God is glorified in His wrath against adultery.
     
  14. tyndale1946

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    Read what John Gill the Calvinist and great expositor of the Holy Bible said on the passage you quoted... Like I said... It's impossible for God to lie!

    Ver. 21. And there came forth a spirit,.... Not from the heavenly host on the right hand or the left, for they are pure and holy spirits, and impeccable, and cannot lie or deceive; but the evil spirit, Satan, the father of lies, the old deceiver, who came forth from his own place and his own company:

    and stood before the Lord presented himself before him, as Satan did, Job 1:6,

    and said, l will persuade him; or prevail upon him; evil spirits love to be employed in doing harm to men, they go about seeking whom they may devour. This could not be the spirit of Naboth, as the Jews say {q}, seeking revenge on Ahab; that was in a state of happiness, could not move from thence, and be capable of sinning.

    {q} T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 89. 1. & 102. 2. Targum in 2 Chron. xviii. 20.

    1 Kings 22:22

    Ver. 22. And the Lord said unto him, wherewith?.... What way and method did he propose, to persuade Ahab to go up to Ramoth? the Lord is introduced in this visionary narrative as asking this question, not as ignorant of the scheme of the evil spirit, but in order to bring it out, and lead on to the following account:

    and he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets; put them on encouraging Ahab to go up, and promising him success, as he had in former battles with the king of Syria, and which might both encourage them to give forth such a prediction, and him to believe it to be true; this proposal was quite agreeable to the character of the devil, as the father of lies:

    and he said, thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also; not only make use of this artifice to persuade, but succeed also; the Lord knew that what he should suggest to the prophets, and they should deliver to Ahab, would be agreeable to his inclination, nor would he do anything in the course of his providence to hinder its taking effect:

    go forth, and do so; which was giving leave to try his skill in the art of persuasion, in which he knew he would succeed, and bring on the righteous judgment of God upon Ahab; with this compare Joh 13:27.


    1 Kings 22:23

    Ver. 23. Now therefore behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these thy prophets,.... That is, suffered the lying spirit to suggest a lie to them, and sent them strong delusions to believe that lie, whose minds were disposed at any rate to flatter Ahab, to whom they told it; which was the way designed to bring him to the ruin appointed for him:

    and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee: he had decreed it in himself, declared it by Micaiah his prophet, and suffered all those steps to be taken by Satan and the false prophets, to bring him to it... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
  15. npetreley

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    And I agree with you. Are you thinking that I was saying anything otherwise?

    My point wasn't that God can lie. My point was that it is incorrect to assume from this fact anything OTHER than "it is impossible for God to lie".

    For example, suppose this passage in 1 Kings did not exist. Someone here might speculate that if a spirit came to God with this "solution" that, because God is perfectly righteous and it is impossible for God to lie, God's reaction would have to be something like, "Gasp! How could you suggest such a thing? Of course you may not be a lying spirit in the mouths of these prophets! It is impossible for me to lie and, being perfectly righteous, I could NEVER condone such a thing!"

    But that assumption would have been wrong, as is demonstrated by the scripture. It is impossible for God to lie, yet God directly ORDAINED a situation where a spirit would lie.

    Another important point that is highlighted by your quote is that God knew in advance that the strategy would achieve His goals. In other words, God is no less righteous for approving the plan, since in God's perfect knowledge, it was guaranteed that good would come from it.

    In the end, it is fallacious to assume that because God will not or cannot tempt anyone that it follows God would not be the ultimate cause (indirectly or directly) of sin. But if we learn anything from the comparison of Hebrews vs. 1 Kings/2 Chronicles, it is that God does know in advance the outcome of permitting anything -- including sin -- and ordains such things to occur.
     
  16. npetreley

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    No, but God is glorified in His wrath against adultery. </font>[/QUOTE]By the way, I only just realized you had specified "believer" in your statement. We can address that if you want to, but I was simply addressing the issue of sin, such as adultery.

    In addition, I should have been more thorough in my response. God is not only glorified in His wrath against adultery, God is also glorified when He decides to express His mercy to someone who has committed adultery.

    So whether God expresses His wrath or His mercy, God is indeed glorified.
     
  17. Scott J

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    Did God foreknow your birth? If so, did he foreknow that you would sin? If so, does your life still bring glory to God?

    It was not necessary for God to predestine sin. At the same time, he created man and Satan knowing that both would rebel against Him. Both Adam and Satan were given a choice to choose evil and did. To choose good would not have been an active choice for either of them. There was no need to choose good. Everything pre-fall already met God's standard for goodness. No one had anything to add to it at all. The only available option was to detract from that goodness.

    Likewise, all men today possess Adamic sin nature and rebel against God by their very nature. Left to ourselves, we will always choose the evil of self over the goodness of God.

    To answer the second question, all of history ultimately brings glory to God by displaying His character.
     

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