Does God send His children to hell?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Sep 16, 2005.

  1. steaver

    steaver
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    I am starting this new thread to continue the OSAS deliberation since the other one is suppose to be focused on the Greek aspect of OSAS.

    If it is true that one can be born of God and yet go to hell, then God must send His not so perfect children ( i guess that would be all of us) to the lake of fire.

    It would also be true that God goes with them to the lake of fire since a child of God is given the Holy Spirit as a permanent source of everlasting life. Therefore it wouldn't matter if you have eternal life or not, you still must be sinless or suffer the consequences of hell. In reality then "eternal life" is meaningless and Christianity is nothing more than just another religion one must obey and then just hope they might not get thrown into hell.

    If there is clearly a difference then why did you say?..." but this is death that results from sin ".

    Which is it? Death from "wandering away from the truth" or "death from sin"?

    James 5:19-20, My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins .

    Are you a "sinner" or a "saint" or both at the same time? Please explain the answer you select and how you became one or the other or both. Thank You!

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
  2. billwald

    billwald
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    Assumes that every person wants to spend eternity with God. Some people will prefer another place.
     
  3. Claudia_T

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    steaver,

    Its very simple, actually.

    Because of sin, we are separated from God. Jesus died for our sins so that we could be reconciled to God. One can choose to accept the death of Christ and His sacrifice for their sins, or not.

    If you do, you must also repent from your sins, for Jesus did not die to provide you with a license to sin, that is not what salvation is all about. God gave His Son to die for us that we might be redeemed from sin. That we might not have a carnal mind, which is at enmity with God.

    Rom:8:7: "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

    Now read this in context:

    Romans 8:1:
    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God

    If you want to continue living in the flesh, in the carnal, at enimity with God, then NO you are not a child of God at all, you are not born of God at all. You are a child of the devil who has chosen his ways.

    But on the other hand, if you accept the sacrifice of Christ and rely upon His blood alone, putting self aside... which also involves a giving up of the flesh, a giving up of the former carnal mind and instead walking in the Spirit... which is in harmony with God's Law... THEN you are indeed a child of God, born of God.

    And just as you choose to do this, you can also choose to go back to your former ways of sin and you can choose to walk in the flesh.

    And if you do then you are no longer a child of God. You are a fake. You are not a Christian, though you may claim to be one.


    If you follow God and decide to walk in His ways, you will often be tempted and fall. But if you get right back up, realize your failure and turn your eyes upon Jesus, walking in His ways, then God accepts your repentence, which is why the Bible says "Little children do not sin, but if you do sin, you have an Advocate, Jesus Christ the righteous". There is a big difference between falling occasionally and just outright choosing to no longer follow God.

    I dont think that all this is too difficult to understand.

    And yes, if you decide to hang onto sin and hang onto your sinful ways, then you are putting yourself in league with Satan and with Satan you will be destroyed because of your own choice.

    But not, you will not burn eternally in Hell for it, you will be destroyed in Hell... after a time. Jesus said some would be punished with few stripes and some with many. Depending upon how much light you have been given and also rejected to follow. Lk:12:48: "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

    Speaking of "Greek" it was the Greeks who introducted this pagan idea that the soul was eternal naturally. The truth is, we dont recieve immortality of the soul until the second coming of Christ. Till then we await in the grave.

    1 Corinthians 15:
    51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    1 Thessalonians 4:
    13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    The idea that when you die you go straight to heaven or hell, came from the Greek pagan belief that the soul is naturally immortal and that we are "gods". In like manner, this same idea is where the belief came from, that says we burn forever and ever in Hell. This is false, sinners are not given the gift of eternal life... either in heaven or in hell.

    I will try to help you in the next message box below...
     
  4. Claudia_T

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    Fate of the Transgressor

    Regarding the wicked, what question does Peter ask?
    "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God; and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17.

    What does Paul say is the wages of sin?
    "For the wages of sin is death." Rom. 6:23 (Eze. 18:4). NOTE. - Die. - To cease to live; to expire; to decease; to perish. - Webster.

    What will be the character of this death?
    "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power." 2 Thess. 1:9 (Acts 3:23) (Matt. 10:28).
    NOTE. - Destroy. - To kill; to slay; to ruin; to put an end to. - Webster.

    What does the Saviour say will befall those who do not repent?
    "I tell you, Nay; but, except ye repent, ye shall all like wise perish." Luke 13:3 (1 Cor. 1:18) (Job 20:4-6). NOTE. - Perish.- To die; to lose life; to wither and decay; to be destroyed; to come to nothing; to be blotted from existence. - Webster.

    In what condition does the apostle say they shall thus perish?
    "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption." 2 Peter 2:12.

    To what are the wicked in their punishment compared?
    "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the lord shall be as the fat of lambs; they shall consume, into smoke shall they consume away." Ps. 37:20.
    NOTE. - Consume. - To destroy by separating the parts of a thing by decomposition, as by fire, etc.; to bring to utter ruin; to exterminate. - Webster.

    What will be the results of this punishment?
    "As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more; but the righteous is an everlasting foundation." Prov. 10:25.

    Will any part of them be left?
    "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Mal. 4:1.

    What will then be their condition?
    "For as ye have drunk upon My holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually; yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been." Obad. 1:16.

    Where will the place of the wicked then be?
    "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be; yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Ps. 37:10.
    NOTE. - It would be difficult to keep the wicked in eternal torment without any place even, in which to exist.

    The earth in its present condition is and has been the place of the wicked. Where will they receive their recompense, death, which is the wages of sin?
    "Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth; much more the wicked and the sinner." Prov. 11:31.

    How is this accomplished?
    "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city; and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Rev. 20:9

    Do the wicked go directly to this punishment at death? If not, when do they receive it?
    "The lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9 (Job 21:29, 30).

    The earth, the sinner's "place," has been cursed with sin. To what is that reserved?
    "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7.

    What will be the result of this fire on the earth?
    "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat." 2 Peter 3:12.

    What does our Saviour call the earth when in this condition?
    "The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire." Matt. 13:41, 42.

    After the burning of the earth, what is to come?
    "Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13.
    NOTE. - The "place" of the wicked no longer exists. That, too, will be gone.

    But where will the righteous then be found?
    "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." Matt. 13:43.

    What promise of the Saviour's will at that time be verified?
    "Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the earth." Matt. 5:5.

    What universal song will be sung?
    "And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever." Rev. 5:13.



    Everlasting Punishment

    When the wicked have once received their punishment, how enduring will be its effect?
    "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal." Matt. 25:46.

    What is the punishment for sin?
    "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom. 6:23.
    NOTE. - This is the very opposite of eternal life. Everlasting punishment, then, is everlasting death, a death that lasts forever.

    How many deaths are there for the wicked?
    "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death." Rev. 21:8.
    NOTE. - Good and bad men are alike subject to the first death, but this is a temporal death, which lasts only till the resurrection. After the cases of all men are settled in the judgment, the wicked then die the second death, which is eternal in its effects.

    In this fire will there be torment? and how long will it last?
    "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever." Rev. 14:10, 11.
    NOTE. - The Greek term translated in this text "forever and ever," has different meanings; according to the connection in which it is used, such as, duration, finite or infinite; unlimited duration, past or future; time, age, lifetime; the world, universe. Greenfield.

    How is the term understood in the case of certain Hebrew servants?
    "His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever." Ex. 21:6.
    NOTE. - He could not serve his master longer than he lived.

    For how long a time did Samuel's mother lend him to the Lord to serve in the temple?
    "I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide forever." "Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." 1 Sam. 1:22, 28.
    NOTE. - In this case it is definitely stated to be ''as long as he liveth." Had Samuel lived only a week or a month, the "forever" would have been limited to a week or a month. It is evident that the term "forever" often means "limited duration."

    How long was Jonah carried in the whale's belly through the depths?
    "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever." Jonah 2:6.
    NOTE. - In this case "forever" is limited to three days.

    What is the nature of the fire into which the wicked will finally be cast?
    "Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, De- part from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels." Matt. 25:41.

    What is said of this fire in another place?
    "He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt. 3:12.
    NOTE. - The fire is said to be everlasting because it is not "quenched." If fire is quenched after taking hold upon a house, the structure is saved; but if the fire is unquenchable, it does for the house just what the last quoted text says it will do with the chaff (the wicked) namely burn it up. Such a fire is called "everlasting," because it lasts as long as there is anything for it to prey upon, and because its results are everlasting.

    Has everlasting or eternal fire ever been visited upon men in the past?
    "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7.

    What was the result of this eternal fire upon those cities?
    "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.
    NOTE. - "Everlasting" fire converted these cities into ashes, and the apostle says they were made an ensample to those who should after live ungodly. We cannot for a moment suppose that those cities are now burning; for the saline waters of the Dead Sea rollover the very spot where they stood.

    What will be the final effect of this fire on the wicked?
    "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power." 2 Thess. 1:9.

    Where must one go to escape from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power?
    "Whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven; thou art there: ...if I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me." Ps. 139:7-10.
    NOTE. - A time is coming when the glory of the Lord shall fill the earth as the waters cover the sea (Hab. 2:14). That the wicked will have been punished (in the lake of fire surrounding and purifying our earth) "with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," Then the righteous shall occupy the new earth, and shall "delight themselves in the abundance of peace." (Hab. 2:11; 2 Peter 3:10-13; Rev. 21:1, 5).
     
  5. Johnv

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    Metaphorically speaking, no. We sned ourselves there by rejecting the gift of salvation when offerred to us.
     
  6. Claudia_T

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    steaver:

    and just as a side note, really, if a person would just read these two Bible verses, and ponder over them a little bit, they would be able to see two great biblical truths:


    1.It is only they have have DONE GOOD who will be saved. --not they who at the beginning of their Christian walk claimed to have accepted Jesus and then decided to go on in their sinful wicked ways:

    Jn:5:29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    2. Hell is for the Destruction of the wicked :

    Mt:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
  7. DHK

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    One must get away from the extreme Calvinist position, which I believe borders on heresy (IMO).
    God doesn't send anyone to hell.
    Man chooses to go there. Man goes to Hell because God gives him the choice whether to choose to accept what his Son has done for him or refuse what he has done for him. Of course an infant can't do that. So the infant automatically goes to heaven. Man, in effect, chooses to go to hell, by the very rejection of God's Son, Jesus Christ. God doesn't send anyone there. It is man's ultimate sentence, pronounced upon him in the Great White Throne Judgment for the refusal of the payment of the penalty of his sin. You cannot pay the fine. You refuse the payment by someone else on your behalf. You pay the price--an eternal price. That eternal price was already paid by the eternal Son of God, who died in your place and you rejected it. An infant didn't reject it, but you, an adult did. Therefore, the Christ-rejecting adult spends eternity in Hell. He has made his choice to do so.

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    DHK
     
  8. Johnv

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    That's exactly was I was trying to say earlier.

    It has nothing to do with the Calvinism/Arminianism debates. It has nothing to do with God's omnipotence and omnipresence thruout all of time. It has nothing to do with irresistable grace or total depravity.

    Bottom line: We're offered a gift. If we don't accept the gift, the gift will not be forced upon us. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a gift. If one wants to use Calvinism to explain that, great for them. If one wants to use Arminianism to explain that, likewise great for them.
     
  9. timothy27

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    So infants automatically go to heaven? Show this in scripture. Christ says NONE shall come to the father except through Him. It could easily be said that since infants cannot choose they go to hell. Now keep reading I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT INFANTS GO TO HELL. Just wanted to make sure that I do not get quoted as believing that, which tends to happen because people do not read entire threads.
     
  10. Johnv

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    One should not presume that just because it is believe infants might go to heaven, that Christ is is absent from that. On the contrary, if anyone has been barred on this earth from the opportunity to reject the gift of salvation, I believe that God will reveal to that person upon death the gift of salvation, thus allowing that person to accept or reject the gift. While this is sctrictly my view, and there is no scripture to refute or support this view, it does fit in with the view that all who come into Heaven are through Christ alone. But it is strictly conjecture on my part. I really have no idea how God works.
     
  11. DHK

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    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    I have this promise from God. I don't completely understand it, but I must accept its veracity by faith. I do not question the promises of God. If any man sincerely wants to be saved God will provide a way that he may be saved. What does he say here?
    "The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL men.
    God promised that. I believe it.
    I have heard testimony to the fact that tribes in Africa pray: "God, if there is a God, reveal yourself to me (us). And for that reason, God sent a missionary there, that they might be saved.

    On the other hand we also have the example in Scripture that David said concerning his infant that he would go to be with him. He was sure that he would see his infant in heaven. On that basis, I can be sure that God in his mercy would grant salvation to infants--not necessarily based on faith, but based on the mercy of God.
    DHK
     
  12. Johnv

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    Good point about mercy, DHK.
     
  13. Grasshopper

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    Those outside of Christ are not His children. Therefore the answer is NO.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    That is true. We are ALL the children of Adam and Adam was the child of God. We are aLL sinners and ALL have fallen short of the Glory of God (not so perfect indeed). So ALL are going to hell.

    So ALL need a Savior!

    In fact that is WHY we even HAVE the Gospel!

    The fallacy that "God did not love us ENOUGH before - but NOW he does" has never been proven true.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    So in Matt 18 - when God FORGIVES HIS OWN - is it real or fake forgiveness?

    ReaL?


    When HIS OWN -- then makes a choice NOT to show that SAME kind of forgiveness to OTHERS - to his brethren - is God pleased or displeased?

    Displeased?

    Then when God revokes that initial forgiveness - is it REAL or not real?

    When Christ says to HIS OWN "SO shall My Father DO TO EACH ONE IF YOU - IF YOU do not forgive others from your heart" is Christ telling the truth?

    I think it is - "the truth".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Marcia

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    Claudia, I never read your posts because they are too long. It might be beneficial if you would summarize your points.
     
  17. steaver

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    Hi Billwald, I have no idea what this means. :confused:

    Hi Claudia, it may not be difficult but you sure have me scratching my head [​IMG] . Are you saying that one can be born again, and again, and again? You make it sound like being a child of God is something one steps in and out of. The scripture states that a child of God is born of God. Something God does, not something you did.

    Hi John, Does God send His children to hell? This is after they recieved the gift of salvation by rebirth.

    Where does being born from above fit in with your what you said here?

    Hi DHK, love ya brother. Hey guys don't hyjack this thread for infant salvation. It has nothing to do with OSAS or my opening question [​IMG]

    Hi Grasshopper, a child of God is not outside of Christ so how is it that therefore your answer is no? The question is about God's children.

    Hi Bob, funney seeing you here [​IMG] Can't say that I follow what you are saying. Is it that ALL (lost and saved) are born of God?

    If it is real then it is permenant otherwise it is fake.

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
  18. steaver

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    Hi Jim, how is it that one can be born of God, given the Spirit of God which testifies with our own spirit that we are the children of God, but yet stop believing?

    Think about it. The Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit is in you constantly testifying to your spirit that you are a child of God. This is not just a mind thing. You are joined as one with Jesus Christ Himself. You feel Him working within your spirit 24/7. Yet you think you can choose to not believe?

    You can't choose to not believe that which has already been established in your heart as absolute truth!

    Think about it! If you know something is an absolute truth, you can no way believe that it is not! Key word is "know". If you don't know Jesus is Lord, then you never recieved the rebirth from God.

    God Bless!
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Brian made a direct response to my post on Matt 18 (something very very few have attempted to do) - but the thread was too long and terminated before I saw his post.

    So I am adding it here.

    I appreciate the very rare occassion when someone will actually LOOK at a text that really displeases their traditions and try to do something with at least part of it.

    (The ranting thing that other people do - is just so much filler - by comparison).

    #1. As it turns out - very few have been able to bring themselves to respond with focus on the details. It seems that those who object to the chapter can't avoid glossing over it and "restating" it as saying "What they wish it had said".

    #2. Therefore the points raised there REMAIN unanswered. And an unanswered point does not get answered by longer periods of silence. (As it turns out).

    #3. Though a lot of people wish the text did prove anything - it does. In fact "forgiveness revoked" is obviously THERE when you read it - and "Forgiveness revoked" is devastating to OSAS.

    #1. Can you bring yourself to list the points being made from Matt 18 and then refute them?

    #2. Can you bring yourself to do anything other than simply glossing over the text -- looking for some way to rework the details actually IN the text?

    #1. That is true. And reflects an accurate detail.

    #2. All the other details remain glossed over by leaping to the end like that. See?

    #3. The fact that he could not pay - at the start without enduring unnacceptable loss - is a fact that remains true "in the Kingdom of heaven". He desperately needed forgiveness for HE COULD NOT pay the debt without incurring a horrible -- unnacceptable - permanent loss. (The loss of family, freedom and all his goods in this parable).

    So the parable does not have the KING tossing him in hell - because the parable is of an earthly example where PENALTY here is not exactly equal to the KING of the UNIVERSE's penalty.

    But the point remains the same. They are both Kings they both have subjects and they BOTH exact an unnacceptable penalty for violation - unnacceptable to the one who owes the debt. Such that the one who OWES needs forgiveness - needs a Savior!

    This is just too "impossible to MISS".

    IN fact in the Lord's prayer the point is REPEATED about OUR seeking forgiveness from God AND NOT being forgiven if we harbor UNFORGIVENESS toward others.

    How can one just "gloss over" the facts?

    In Matt 10 Christ said that "BOTH Body AND soul are DESTROYED in Hell fire".

    So "the out" is the final oblitration after all the debt of suffering is paid. But this is still an "unnacceptable loss" to the one that suffers the fate of having to pay for their OWN debt!

    Because of this - the illustration CONTINUES to hold true.

    And that surprises many - that Christ's illustration should be a PERFECT illustration of the Kingdom of heaven and REAL forgiveness REALLY revoked and the REAL debt of sin REALLY being paid... pretty real!


    Lets not gloss over the details.

    #1. CHRIST said this is about "the Kingdom of heaven".

    #2. CHRIST never speaks of God forgiving the lost and their REMAINING lost.

    #3. CHRIST never argues for the BENEFIT of UNSAVED FORGIVENESS and the importance of an unsaved person NOT losing the unsaving forgiveness that they have recieved.

    #4. Christ never argues that there is a penalty paid for UNSAVED - unforgiveness that is NOT paid by the UNSAVED in hell when they are forgiven.

    #5. Christ said "SO shall my FAther do to EACH OF YOU" speaking to His OWN disciples -- to claim that ALL to whom the scenario applies must be unsaved - is to claim that the first evangelists sent out by Christ in Matt 10 were unsaved lost depraved sinners.

    The convoluted turns such a "unsaved forgiveness" theology must contrive to circle the wagons around the failed teaching of OSAS are too many to be counted.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Regarind Matt 18 where Peter asks "How many times SHALL MY BROTHER OFFEND me and yet I forgive him".

    Christ answers with the parable saying "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN is like a King who had many servants..."

    No starting condition other than "great debt owed" is given for the servant.

    The servant goes to the King - being convicted of his great debt and the fact that payment is horribly unnacceptable for such a gigantic debt - the cost would be unmentionable. The selling off of his own family and loss of everything including freedom.

    In real life - the lost sinner is a "lost sheep" and the Good Shepherd leaves the 99 and seeks that one lost sheep.

    God SO LOVED that HE GAVE. THE starting point is OUR DEBT and GOD's LOVE FOR US! We ARE the sheep of His pasture - LOST sheep.

    Hey! We agree on something!

    And once FORGIVEN - the servant is now in the role of a justified forgiven saints.

    NOW he is in the position that Peter is asking about - PETER wants to know how many times to forgive HIS BROTHER. It is the concept of forgiveness INSIDE the church.

    Because there IS an exact debt for exact sin.

    In Luke 12:42-50 we find that some owe a larger debt than others.

    #1. You have used a circular argument. IF He did not do WHAT WAS DONE for HIM - then HE WAS REALLY saved - REALLy at PEACE with the KING - REALLY forgiven.

    IF he was NOT REALLY forgiven then HE DID go out and do JUST WHAT WAS DONE for HIM!

    You can't do what you are doing - trying to have it "both ways".

    Either HE WAS forgiven and at peace with the King - and then FAILED to show that SAME genuine spirit to his brother. OR The King was STILL at war with him, he was STILL unforgiven and had NO BASIS to do anything but THE EXACT SAME THING to others!

    Indeed and his CRIME is that he does not love OTHERS AS HE is LOVED! HE does not FORGIVE AS he HAS BEEN forgiven! HE does not offer to OTHERS the SAME reconciliation HE HAS with the KING!

    Hence the utter devastation of OSAS!


    This is merely a rabbit trail. Christ does not asy "AND the KING needed someone to tell him because he lives in the dark". By imagining reasons to find fault with the pararble you are not actually helping OSAS.

    Notice that God tells Abraham - we are GOING to Sodom TO SEE IF the reality is a great as the cry of it -- AS IF God needed to SEE whether that was true. (This is an even STRONGER case and more explicit that Christ makes in Matt 18).

    Such representations are NOT grounds to dismiss the point as Genesis proves beyond a doubt.

    Indeed it is - but OSAS fails as you type that - because a LOST person is not supposed to LEARN from that text that they need to be greateful for the Love they do NOT have or the forgiveness they have NOT received!

    Such an application is totally bogus.

    RATHER it is to you that the parable applies if you are a saint "SO shall my Father do to each of YOU" said Christ to HIS OWN!

    It is HIS OWN that have that SAVED BASIS upon which to ACT and show OTHERS the Love that they HAVE Already been given by God!

    It is impossible to spin this story for OSAS without a total train wreck. Your comments so far prove that in triplicate.

    When scripture displeases tradition the first thing traditionalists want to do is "Gloss over" and the next thing they want to do is "move on as fast as possible".

    Well said.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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