Does God?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by menageriekeeper, Oct 24, 2010.

  1. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    From another thread:

    This is the second time here lately that I have seen this arguement used as a reason to do or not something.

    The first time was in relation to voting for a candidate who might be pro choice. "The blood of aborted babies will be on the voter's hands".

    The above quote is from the alcohol thread.

    Does God lay the blame for someone else's sin onto us because we acted, voted or just plain walked in a way that some non-Christian used as an excuse to sin? Or are their sins their own?

    Remember this thread is NOT, NOT, NOT!, about either abortion or alcohol! This thread is only about whether God holds us responsible for the sins of another. The last thread I started on this subject got derailed and closed so please stick to answering the question!

    Back your arguements up with scripture please.
     
  2. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    It would be like holding every German citizen responsible for the mehem of the few "Higher ups" who foolishly instigated WW2!!---Keep in mind that not every German citizen was a "Knot-zee"

    It would be like holding every Muslim responsible for the carnage of 9-11
     
  3. Gina B

    Gina B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    16,944
    Likes Received:
    1
    Sometimes I do wonder how much responsibility we bear.

    For example, what happens if we feel convicted to share Christ with someone during a conversation and we "quench the Spirit?" Will that person rightfully be able to turn to us one day and ask us why we didn't take that opportunity to share an eternal life and death choice with them?

    What is that person saw your life's witness and kept tossing around the idea of coming and talking to you about Christ, but when they got there, you had alcohol on your breath or an alcoholic drink in your hand and they had no clue how much you had and whether it would be the alcohol or you talking, so they didn't bother?

    Aren't citizens of the United States obligated to overthrow evil government? If we fail to overthrow those we allow to make evil decisions, don't we naturally share some of the blame for abortions since such an act is not "light or transient?"

    Good question. I can't give a solid answer, but there's definitely not enough evidence that we remain untainted by our decisions, actions, and inaction to say we're completely innocent for our influences when it comes to the choices other people make.
     
  4. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,135
    Likes Received:
    320
    This thread may not be about abortion only but the issue of abortion is a good example of a deeper involvement than simply voting for a Democrat.

    The DNC has so far for the past few presidential elections officially supported the right of a woman to an elective abortion.

    For me, I can't even vote for a blue-dog because of the DNC official stand concerning abortion:

    Exodus 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:​

    HankD
     
    #4 HankD, Oct 25, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  5. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    I prefer the ESV for the verse Hank quoted:

    Exo 23:2 You shall not fall in with the many to do evil, nor shall you bear witness in a lawsuit, siding with the many, so as to pervert justice,

    Hank, this speaks to me of 'going with the crowd' with the intent to do wrong. It doesn't seem to apply to having a drink and taking the risk that someone might use that as an excuse to not become a Christian. Nor does it seem to apply to voting for a Democrat because the national party is prochoice even though the one Democrat I plan on voting for this election is a fellow church member!

    I hear this "blood on my hands" theory battered about entirely to often for the evidence I have found so far to support the saying.
     
  6. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,135
    Likes Received:
    320
    I suppose if the only pro-life candidate left on the ballot was a democrat then I probably would vote for him/her depending on the rest of his/her agenda or maybe just stay home.

    HankD
     
  7. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was raised that staying home was a cop-out. ;)
     
  8. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hello menageriekeeper

    Back to the point of your thread, you asked........
    Some people will answer your question with a “yes”; And the Scripture a lot of people use is.........
    Ezekiel 3:18
    “When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.”


    Although, using this verse to make their point, is a misinterpretation.

    This passage is talking about a “watchman”(pastor), warning "Israel"(God’s people), to repent of their sins.

    Indeed, if a preacher fails to faithfully preach God’s Word, and warn God’s people about the destructive nature of their sin and God chastens them to death, than that preacher will have their blood on his hands.......
    Hebrews 13:17
    “Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.”

    --------------------------------------------------
    Therefore, No, we will not be held accountable for what others(the unsaved), do.
     
  9. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,135
    Likes Received:
    320
    That wouldnt appy to me as I am not a cop.

    HankD
     
  10. glfredrick

    glfredrick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess we can ask if God judged the entire nation of Israel for the sins of some... I'd bring Scripture, but it is about half of the OT.

    There are two ways to think about this issue. The first way is as follows:

    We are culpable for our own sin. We cannot claim ignorance (Rom 1-2) we cannot claim coercion, and we cannot claim divine appointment or cause. Our sin is our own and we know the penalty for it.

    We know that "all" (pas in the Greek -- means "all" as in ALL) have sinned, and so "all" are culpable and with that dead (death is the just reward for sin). We do not get "more dead" if we sin more, for we are already dead in our original sin.

    It is only God's common grace to all of humankind (to all of cursed creation!) that even allows us the chance to breath long enough for God to demonstrate His mercy and grace to us individually, which He is at work doing constantly and to all sinners.

    This, then, implies that "sinners" who elect supporters of abortion or other morally derelict actions are not more doomed than any other action of an already dead people.

    But, "righteous ones" (those "in Christ") are in a different category, and rightly understand their culpability, and also know that they are forgiven and now held to a higher standard, both for themselves and for their actions more widely distributed into the general populace, which brings up the second way of thinking about this issue.

    Given by God the ability to materially participate in our governance, we inherit through our God ordained political system both the right and the responsibility to act in accordance with God's Word. Just as Israel was made up of sinners, culpable individually for their sin, God still held them accountable for the direction of their entire nation, and eventually judged them all based on the general direction of their actions.

    The implications here are that IF we CAN do something to make changes in accordance with God's Word, then we MUST. While we may not be successful in seeing those changes come to fruition, we are nevertheless responsible to do what (all!) that we can do to bring light and life into this world instead of darkness and death. "Choose this day blessing or cursing..."

    When both positions are examined, we realize that we have done far too little to ACTIVELY participate in a material fashion in the governance of our nation, and if there are evils due to our political system, it is our fault. Why would I say that? Because demographic studies indicate that Christians have held a majority position in the American populace since the founding of our nation. We have held as much as 75+% of the population, and still do. If every viable man and woman voted according to the Scriptures, America would be a vastly different nation than it is today.

    But, we sit back and act as if we have kings in place over us... Shame on us! Not that our "salvation" is political. It is not, nor do we need a theocracy... But we could have a Federal Republic where the people know that they are endowed with inalienable rights by their Creator, and where the law of the land is in line with the Scriptures and not with the secular lost world.
     
  11. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,619
    Likes Received:
    158
    In general I do not believe one person is held in any way accountable for the sins of another person.

    However, if a young woman has an abortion I do feel the young man involved is to some degree also responsible, especially if he encouraged or insisted that she have an abortion.

    There is no scripture to back this idea as there is only one verse in the entire Bible that speaks remotely about abortion and that comes down on the side of the mother.
     
  12. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,355
    Likes Received:
    0
    Menageriekeeper asked:
    The answer to that is No. God does not hold us accountable for the sins of others; each person is responsible for their own sins only. One clear verse that addresses this is Deuteronomy 24:16
    This verse is show in execution many years later by King Joash in II Kings 14:5-6
    Now there are two important things being said by scripture here. The first is that you will not be held accountable for the sins of another, but the second is that you will be held accountable for your own sins. Many times in scripture there seem to be stories that contradict the verses quoted above. A good example is when David numbered the people of Israel. It was David’s sin, against the council of his advisors, yet thousands of Israelites died. It would appear that they suffered for David’s sin, and certainly they did, but neither were they innocent.

    This brings us to Blackbird’s comment where he said
    No every German citizen was not responsible for the actions of the Nazis. Yet every German citizen was responsible for himself. Those that were deceived and led astray, perhaps they are held blameless in the eyes of God. But how many knew and did nothing? Martyrs like Dietrich Bonhoeffer spoke up and died for it. Secular men like Oscar Schindler lied, stole, and cheated to protect those they could. Every German citizen is not held accountable for the holocaust, but each is held accountable for their own actions during that time.

    Likewise every Muslim is not responsible for the attack of 9-11. Yet those who preach hate and murder, those who advocate violence, they are accountable for their own actions.

    If your actions cause another to sin, you are not held accountable for their sins, they will have to answer for that, but you are not blameless as you will answer for your own actions.

    In the political arena, the politician will be held responsible for the evil they use their office to accomplish, but each voter will be held accoutable for their vote. Were they decieved? Did they knowingly elect an evil man because they believed it would result in personal gain? Did they do the best they could with the choices they were offered?

    In a more eternal arena, we are all born with a sin nature, yet no man goes to hell for Adam’s sin. Each soul is responsible for his own sin.

    Matthew 6:24 tells us not to worry about tomorrow that we have enough to worry about today. “Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.” Likewise I would say that we need not worry about being responsible for the sins that other s have committed, we have committed enough of our own.
     
    #12 North Carolina Tentmaker, Oct 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2010
  13. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    Personally, I think the "blood on hands" refers to those who God has given an opportunity to do something about a given situation, but do nothing about it.

    That would fit the context of the "watchman" passages.
     
  14. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Wonder how much of the OT watchman concept is applicable in the body of Christ today? Its proper interpretation is clearly for Israel and primary application is clearly for those (elders) who are appointed to watch over the flock.

    And the "I sinned because I saw you with a can of beer" argument is beyond ludicrous. I sin because I am be choice and nature a sinner. Once saved I still have a choice and a depraved will/flesh that is prone to sin. Blaming MY choice/fleshly actions on YOU is a cop out.
     
  15. Crucified in Christ

    Crucified in Christ
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    0
    Paul said that he preached the entire truth that the people's blood would not be on his hands. This seems to connect the idea to the Body of Christ.
     

Share This Page

Loading...