Does having imperfect translations attack God's character and preservation?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by uhdum, Apr 3, 2004.

  1. uhdum

    uhdum
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    Much of the debate on this forum seems to be as to how God preserved His Word.

    I have observed that KJVOs claim that God has chosen to preserve His Word in the English language through one perfect version.

    Those who support modern versions claim that the KJVOs' idea of preservation is wrong, and that God does not limit Himself to one perfect translation. Instead, He has chosen to allow us to have a proliferation of imperfect translations of which the "meanest" is still God's Word (said the KJV translators).

    My question for both groups is this: how does the thought of God giving us imperfect translations reflect on preservation and God's character? I am pretty sure of the KJVO answer on this one, but would like to hear from them anyway. I also would like MV supporters to explain how this idea does NOT attack God's character or doctrine of preservation.

    God bless!
     
  2. michelle

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    Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

    Uhdum,

    You hit the nail right on the head with this:

    "how does the thought of God giving us imperfect translations reflect on preservation and God's character?"....
    "showing how this idea does NOT attack God's character or doctrine of preservation."

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  3. Pastor_Bob

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    God did not give us imperfect translations, man did. God gave us His perfect Word in the original autographs, and then preserved His Word in the generations of copies of those original manuscripts. Only translations, in any language, that accurately represent those copies that correctly represent the originals can be considered the preserved Word of God.
     
  4. Dr. Bob

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    Amen, PB. To attribute "GOD" giving any translation is not the doctrine of preservation (which is not a doctrine, btw) but a second work of inspiration.

    And that is a slippery slope!

    p.s. Good to have you back posting again!
     
  5. michelle

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    Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

    Have any of you ever heard of, or participated in the kid game "grapevine"? With your logic in this, we would not be able to trust anything that claimed to be the Holy Bible, and our spiritual lives, and walk with the Lord would be affected tremendously if this were the case. Not only that, but it is denying the promise of God to preserve his words, for every generation, among many other scriptures that have attested to the truth that we can and should trust and rely upon every word of God of truth for all areas in our life.

    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  6. Askjo

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    Glory God! Praise the Lord! Amen! [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  7. michelle

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    Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

    --------------------------------------------------
    Pastor Bob quoted:

    God did not give us imperfect translations, man did. God gave us His perfect Word in the original autographs, and then preserved His Word in the generations of copies of those original manuscripts. Only translations, in any language, that accurately represent those copies that correctly represent the originals can be considered the preserved Word of God.
    --------------------------------------------------

    Then let me ask you this: what good then, was it for God to give us his perfect words in the origional, to then not perfectly preserve them? Does God view his words in such a manner? My bible tells me, that His words are pure words, and that He would preserve them for EVERY GENERATION. You are denying the truth of what God has said concerning his word, which He has also stated HE holds above all else and to which his people are to live by?

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  8. michelle

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    Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

    --------------------------------------------------Michelle quoted:

    Have any of you ever heard of, or participated in the kid game "grapevine"? With your logic in this, we would not be able to trust anything that claimed to be the Holy Bible, and our spiritual lives, and walk with the Lord would be affected tremendously if this were the case. Not only that, but it is denying the promise of God to preserve his words, for every generation, among many other scriptures that have attested to the truth that we can and should trust and rely upon every word of God of truth for all areas in our life.
    --------------------------------------------------

    Not only this, but instead of relying upon and trusting God in his providence to preserve his words perfectly, we would then have to trust, and be at the mercy of the scholars of the day. I would rather trust God who has already done this for the english speaking people, rather than man who thinks he hasn't.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  9. Pete Richert

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    I only trust God did and does what the Bible says He did and does.
     
  10. gb93433

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    Michelle:

    Like the grapevine game you have listened to those who you follow like a puppy dog with unquestioned obedience and like the JW's have written off everything others (who don't even know each other) have tried to tell you.

    You have spent your time relying on your holy spirit whose origin is personal. The Holy Spirit is no substitute for preparation and good hard work studying. You have not studied and are not prepared but make great claims.

    The scripture teaches in Proverbs 12:1, "Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, But he who hates reproof is stupid."

    I would rather trust God who has already done this for the english speaking people, rather than man who thinks he hasn't.

    What an incredible statement! You actually believe those pedobaptists from the Church of England who translated the KJV and call them God? WOW!!
     
  11. gb93433

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    His words were not recorded in English. The words you read are a translation. Do some study on what a translation is. I gave you one example from Spanish that hopefully will give you a little taste of what the translators faced and how difficult that task is.

    You are making statements even the KJV translators would have disagreed with.
     
  12. Trotter

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    Amen, Pastor Bob! Amen!

    If God's word had been passed down by word of mouth only, this could be the case. But men (yes, frail imperfect men) took it upon themselves to copy God's words so as to preserve them. They were the instruments that God used to accomplish His will.

    If men only relied on God to do it all, they would have not bothered to copy anything. I mean, if God said He was going to do it, then let Him do it, right? Thankfully, men were faithful to be used of God to preserve His word.

    By the way, did you know that you are trusting, and at the mercies, of the scholars of the day? It is true. Only the day is in different years, from around 1611 until now (the KJV was once a modern version... shudder, shudder). So, you see, you are trusting God, but also trusting man (the translators), same as the rest of us [​IMG] .

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  13. Trotter

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    gb93433,

    I have already tried to explain what a translation is to Michelle. Either she ignored it, didn't read it, didn't understand it, or it interfered with her belief system.

    In other words, don't waste your keystrokes.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  14. Pastor KevinR

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    God did not give us imperfect translations, man did. God gave us His perfect Word in the original autographs, and then preserved His Word in the generations of copies of those original manuscripts. Only translations, in any language, that accurately represent those copies that correctly represent the originals can be considered the preserved Word of God. </font>[/QUOTE]Pastor Bob, with the THIRD greatest name, after Jesus and Kevin :D , you articulated this truth very well!
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    http://www.christianbeliefs.org/kjv/preservation.html

    This shows the falacious thinking (or lack of same) of the only sect on the important concept of God preserving His Word.

    They believe:
    (1) God gave the original Scriptures in a perfect, inerrant form? TRUE

    (2) God is obligated to preserve that inspired Scripture in an absolutely perfect and uncorrupted form? FALSE

    (3) No manuscripts of the Greek New Testament are alike in every detail? TRUE

    (4) God preserved His inspired Scripture in another format - the KJV? FALSE
     
  16. tinytim

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    Michelle&gt;&gt;&gt;" My bible tells me, that His words are pure words, and that He would preserve them for EVERY GENERATION. You are denying the truth of what God has said concerning his word, which He has also stated HE holds above all else and to which his people are to live by?"

    My Bible says, "Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
    Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

    The same thing, only the word "them" is referring to people not words. It is all about context, and to take a passage out of context to prove a myth is ethically dishonest at best.

    But I'll play along with your corrupt interpretation. Just suppose you're right. Then what hinders me from believing the NIV is the one that God decided to preserve his words in? After all the KJV adds to God's word in 1 jn 5:7, quotes the latin vulgate in Rev., and disclaims the personality of The Holy Spirit.
    If God did promise all translations were to be perfect, what was he doing in 1611, when the translators added to His word?
    Where in scripture does it say the KJV is the one and only perfect Bible?
    Show me this, and I'll be KJVO forever.
     
  17. Phillip

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    Your just glad he's back because he's named "Bob" too!!!?? [​IMG]
     
  18. robycop3

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    Uhdum:My question for both groups is this: how does the thought of God giving us imperfect translations reflect on preservation and God's character? I am pretty sure of the KJVO answer on this one, but would like to hear from them anyway. I also would like MV supporters to explain how this idea does NOT attack God's character or doctrine of preservation.

    God also gave us all our various LANGUAGES. We know that no one language will translate 100% into any other, but God presents His word by various means in almose every one of them. If we cross-translate the Scriptures from their versions in several languages into one common language, no two of them will be alike.

    While no man has lived throughout all the time that's passed since God finished presenting His messages to all mankind, GOD has, and since it's HIS words to us in the first place, we must rely on the evidence HE has given us. And we must remember that with God, all things are possible.

    I once read the story of a missionary husband & wife who was trying to evangelize an isolated South American people whose very culture was based upon deceit, thievery, and murder. Even the separate villages of this tribe fought with each other, & the only way the missionaries could befriend them & not end up being missionary stew was to keep them supplied with steel tools. As they learned the tribe's language, they prayed to God for a way to present the Gospel to this people who had no written language & whose culture was so different from most other people's.

    One day, there was a "feud" between two villages. During a lull in the fighting, two important-looking men from each village sat down & talked privately. Then, each man returned to his band & gestured for them to put their weapons away. Then, each man went to the enemies' band(all the people of both villages had shown up to watch or to take part in the fight) and selected a male baby & took him from his mother & carried him back to their own respective bands. Then, both bands headed home.

    The missionaries were alarmed!They thought those babies were gonna be sacrificed or were gonna meet some other barbarous end. However, a tribesman who'd closely befriended the missionaries explained what had occurred. This is NOT a verbatim quote, but in effect the tribesman said, "We residents of a certain village who trust no one from any other village or people must have a way to call a truce and end a fight between villages, and to guarantee our promises. That way is to exchange one male child with our opponents. These boys are called 'love children' and are raised in great honor and luxury. Long as one or both of them live, there will be no fighting between the respective villages. The love children are a pledge of our word."

    Suddenly, the missionaries saw how to preach the Gospel to these people! To keep a long story short, they explained that Jesus was God's once-for-all Love Child given to all men to make peace between them and the God whom all men have sinned against. Without going into detail, let me conclude by saying their evangelism was successful, with several hundred of these tribespeople becoming Christians.

    The point is, GOD HAS WAYS to do what we cannot. He could've given His missionaries the power to do miracles, or He could've directly influenced the tribesmens' minds, or He could've used methods completely unknown to us. This applies to His word. While it's improbable that these tribesmen could ever have understood everything in the Scriptures, especially since their knowledge of other peoples was VERY limited, they understood what God wanted them to know in order to be saved. We might ask, "Why didn't God show this to those missionaries in the beginning of their mission?", but we must remember GOD does things in HIS time, not ours. HIS thoughts and knowledge are infinitely greater than ours. One thing the missionaries understood was that they had to become proficient in the tribe's language for them to be able to effectively preach to them, & this took nearly one year.

    The evidence within the Scriptures themselves in any language shows us that God has allowed man to handle His word. And many parts of Scripture are actually the words of men, inspired by God and chosen by Him to be Scripture. Such is the case with the Pauline Epistles. They were written(or dictated) by Paul to be sent to specific congregations, but they were copied & sent to other churches, and were recognized by Peter, under guidance of Jesus, as Scripture .(2 Peter 3:16)

    The clear evidence God has left us is that He's allowed His word to be written by men into many versions & translations, but yet His messages are plain to the readers. I believe that to deny that a given BV is NOT God's words without any proof is an insult to God, denying His ability to present His words as HE chooses.
     
  19. Askjo

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  20. Askjo

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    This is your W/H theology or CT theology. Keep in mind that W/H were closet catholics. Are you one of them?

    How would you read 6,500 adulterated words in the NIV because they are not the Word of God?

    The KJVO prefers to the KJV perfection; the KJVP prefers to the KJV accuracy.

    If God did promise all translations were to be accurate, what was he doing in 1611, when the translators added to His word? God perfectly preserved His Words in apographs. Therefore God perfectly preserved His inspired Words in the KJV.

    John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

    There is the Textus Receptus. The text where God inspired and preserved His Words, is how these believers received the Words from Jesus Christ Himself.

    Look at Dr. Bruce Metzger. I learned that he is an unbeliever who rejected the story in the book of Genesis.

    John 5:46-47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me . But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

    That's why Metzger produced his MV and Greek text.

    The KJV is the Bible for our mother tongue. The Cambridge KJV is the most accurate Bible.
     

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