Does it matter if you are elect?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by billwald, Jul 16, 2005.

  1. billwald

    billwald
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    Why do you care if you are "elect?" Isn't it enough to do right BECAUSE it it is right? Must everything have a payback?
     
  2. whetstone

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    elect - 17 times
    elect's - 3 times
    election - 6 times
    predestinate - 2 times

    Verses relating to TULIP, election in general, or foreordination: over 630.

    If it weren't important it wouldn't be so prevelant in scripture.
     
  3. 4His_glory

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    I care, because I never stop being humbled, awed, and amazed of God's grace towards me. I am forever in His debt, of which I will never repay.

    To God be the glory great things He has done!
     
  4. Wes Outwest

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    Care to post the complete list?
     
  5. yeshua4me2

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    not if your President Bush....lol...sorry
     
  6. 4His_glory

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    Care to post the complete list? </font>[/QUOTE]He already did.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1486.html
     
  7. Wes Outwest

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    Well perhaps we should go down the list and study each of those scriptures IN ITS CONTEXT! and see just what it is that Whetsone is preaching.

    By the way Whetstone, what version did you do your "search" in that produced 17 hits on the word "elect". You see it really matters which version is used as to the number of hits one gets on those words.
     
  8. 4His_glory

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    Wes which version he used is irrelevant to the discussion. Many of those passage have been examined in context on this forum and you totally ignored them.

    Since when does context matter to you any how? You don't believe in a literal hermenutic.
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    In a cursory look at the list, one can see that many of the scriptures that contain the words elect, elect's, election, and predestination, do not support a doctrine of general election. In their context, they meaning is something other than general election.
     
  10. 4His_glory

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    Thats right! They don't support general election they support unconditional election. If you are calling unconditional election "general election" you really don't understand theological terms very well.
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    No, that's true, but I do believe in Message Hermenutics....get the message?
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    Unconditional election does not include the whole of mankind, only those who are specifically mentioned in God's Holy Word for our edification. Since you cannot name any who are God's "elected" today, you definitely have no legs to stand on. God's word names a whole lot humans that he elected for his purpose. Non of them are alive in this natural world today.
     
  13. 4His_glory

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    Message hermenutics? Thats a new one to me.

    Unconditional election means that their are no conditions involved in the election, it is all of God. You are right it does not include all mankind, because not all mankind will be saved.

    I can name some of God's elect, because I am one of them! And yes He elected me for a purpose- To the Praise of His Glory!!!
     
  14. OldRegular

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    James P. Boyce, cofounder and first president of the Southern Baptist Seminary, defines election to salvation as follows [Abstract of Systematic Theology , page 347]:

    “God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.

    John L. Dagg in his Manual of Theology [page 309] defines election to salvation simply as:

    “All who will finally be saved, were chosen to salvation by God the Father, before the foundation of the world, and given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace.”

    John I. Packer, an Anglican theologian, writes about the doctrine of election as follows [Concise Theology, page 149; see also the New Geneva Bible, page 1784]

    “The biblical doctrine of election is that before Creation God selected out of the human race, foreseen as fallen, those whom He would redeem, bring to faith, justify, and glorify in and through Jesus Christ. This divine choice is an expression of free and sovereign grace, for it is unconstrained and unconditional, not merited by anything in those who are its subjects. God owes sinners no mercy of any kind, only condemnation; so it is a wonder, and a matter for endless praise, that He should choose to save any of us; and doubly so when His choice involved the giving of His own Son to suffer as sin bearer for the elect.”

    W. T. Conner, a professor at the Southwestern Baptist Theological seminary early in the 20th century writes of election as follows [Christian Doctrine, page 155]:

    “It [Election] means that God has decreed to bring certain ones, upon whom His heart has been eternally set, who are the objects of His eternal love, to faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. When a man is saved he is not saved as a matter of chance or accident or fate; he is saved in pursuance of an eternal purpose of God. God saves man because He intends to. He saves a particular man, at a particular time, under a particular set of circumstances, because He intends to.”
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    Explain the difference!
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    OldRegular,
    In light of John 6:40, and In spite of the pleasure that I have gotten out of reading J.I.Packer, I am convinced beyond doubt that he is wrong! The others you post are just as wrong!

    Those who fall under the situation you call unconditional election, are those who have been named in scripture. The millions whose names are not mentioned in scripture yet, who believe in God and especially in Jesus, for example, the unnamed Ephesian, Colossian, Roman, Galatian, Hebrew, and Corinthian believers that Paul wrote to, are saved through faith while not being "elect" of God. But through faith in God receive everlasting life with God. They came to God because they believed what was told to them about God, they received Knowledge of God, and with that knowledge established faith in God. God saves ALL who have faith in HIM!
     
  17. billwald

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    In other words, if you all thought you were not "elect" you would sign on with Satan?
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    Billwald,
    I seriously doubt that anyone who is hearing the gospel ever considers "election" at all! It is only after the new convert becomes indoctrinated into Calvinism that election ever becomes a consideration, because election is not the key, it is the individual's faith in God that is the key to the individual's salvation. Sovereign God gave man the choice to have faith that stems from knowledge received from God's Word. God rejects no man who has faith in Him! Therefore "election" is only a consideration of those who want to make it so! It is false salvation doctrine.
     
  19. rc

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    What IS election then Wes? Why is it even in the New Testament? It is in there you know.
     
  20. Wes Outwest

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    What is election?
    In a democracy, it is how the people choose their government representatives. In a theocracy, it is how God chooses his "elected" officials, rulers and kings etc. or the Key players for his purposes, It can also be the selection of a people to be HIS!

    I, however, have difficulty with unconditional or general election, the arbitrary picking and choosing of who gets saved and who doesn't, especially in light of the Choice that God gives to man to make for himself; in light of God the son's atonement for All the sin of the world in All times and the statement that any man, through faith, can now have everlasting life because the death penalty has been paid.

    Calvinism, because of its insistance on unconditional election, fails to recognize the magnanimous grace that God extends by removing the penalty for sin so that whosoever believeth in Him (Jesus) shall not perish but have everlasting life. Why would God need to pick and choose when he clearly says that whosoever is acceptable to Him? No sir, Calvinism will never win me over because it is false doctrine.
     

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