Does it take grace to "like" Romans 9?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Dale-c, Apr 16, 2008.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
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    I was listening to an excellent program by Dr. James White about Romans 9.
    Towards the end he mentions that the only way a person would like this chapter is by grace because no natural man would ever like this concept.

    Here is the youTube link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiTxBftvqnM

    There is also an mp3 on his website at aomin.org.
     
  2. webdog

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    I love Romans 9! In fact, when put into the CORRECT CONTEXT of Romans 9 - 11, it's a beautiful picture of God's plan for Israel.

    I really wish the cal's would quit trying to force a square peg into a round hole :BangHead:
     
  3. Dale-c

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    Forcing everything to be nations simply does not make any sense.

    You should listen to Whites presentation.
    It is hard to argue with.
     
  4. webdog

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    Forcing Romans 9-11 to be nations? Are you serious? It IS about Israel plain and simple. It takes hermeunetical gymnastics to make it about individual salvation.

    I can argue against anything that is not the truth, so if he believes as you stated, I would be able to do just that.
     
  5. nodak

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    Does it take grace to LIKE Romans 9?

    No, but it takes grace to GET Romans 9.

    Some read it and basically come away with "Nanny nanny boo boo, God chose me and not you."

    Really, I believe, it is showing us the unbelievably grace filled fact that God saves by sheer grace, not because of position, works, race, gender, wealth, religious affiliation, or any other factor we humans consider as so all important.

    I believe it calls us all to fall on our faces and thank God for grace rather than trying to limit it, define it, or put it in any boxes.

    And if we read it and come away considering ourselves in any way, form, or fashion as more beloved or enlightened or chosen of God than anyone else, we missed the whole point.
     
  6. Dale-c

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    This is certainly true.
    And it is not because it is so hard to understand.
    It is clear but it is hard to admit.
    It is so natural to resist.

    I resisted for years.

    I never get non cals that act like calvinism promoted some sort of superiority.
    Perhaps there are hyper calvinists that think they are better than others but no one that understands grace has any room to boast at all.
     
  7. webdog

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    You still are. The context is clear, but you would rather hold to your position instead.
     
  8. Dale-c

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    The context is clear, but it is clear in God's favor and not man's.

    The interesting this is that all of the objections that man can come up with are answered in this chapter.

    Why does God find fault for who has resisted His will?
    Is that not the same objection that the free will crowd throws out all the time?
    The "robot" objection?

    ?
     
  9. webdog

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    #9 webdog, Apr 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2008
  10. Dale-c

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    I have an idea, lets go over this verse by verse.

    Verses 1 and 2:
    I don't think there is any dispute about these verses.

    Next 3,4 and 5:

    Notice the word Israelites. Not nations here. it is people, individual people who are Israelites.

    They are not all Israel who are descended from Israel. Talking about individuals here.

    See.....it is not the physical, national heritage that it is talking about. Pretty clear.

    No talk of nations here. They were chosen without any works of their own.
    Whose purpose? Whose choice?

    I am not sure what you would do to explain this away.

    One of the most common objections to God's sovereignty and will.
    If you raise this objection, your argument is with God and HIs word, not with calvinists.

    Still think this has to do with individuals or nations?

    Oops, there goes the free will of man right out the window.

    The very purpose of Pharaoh was to be hardened to do the will of God.

    Again we see one of the very common objections to the doctrines of Grace.
    And the answer:

    I need to go now but I will try to finish this later
     
  11. Rippon

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    A number of years ago while I was with the Evangelical Free Church denomination an interesting thing happened in adult Sunday School . The teacher asked someone to read all of Romans 9 out loud . The man began , but studdered and stammered and fumed and fussed saying that it couldn't mean what it said . He actually became angry at the text of Scripture !

    Sometimes anger is good . At least he wasn't indifferent . I don't know what became of him after that .

    The EFC is not particularly Calvinistic ( certain Churches among the denomination may be more Reformed-minded though ) , so it was fascinating how the Word of God brought conviction of sorts ( ! ) to this man while simply reading it .

    A number of you should read this chapter aloud -- it certainly runs counter to a great deal of contemporary preaching and teaching .
     
    #11 Rippon, Apr 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2008
  12. webdog

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    Did he read the accompanying chapters 10 and 11 with it...or just chapter 9?
     
  13. Dale-c

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    My first encounter with biblical calvinism was when I visited a friends church which held to the LBC of 1689.
    I remember just reading Romans 8 and not stopping at verse 28 but reading verse 29.
    I could not believe it.
    It actually said the word "predestinated"
    I was dumbfounded.

    I have never heard the last part of chapter 8 read in church, nor had I ever heard any part of chapter 9 that I could recall at the time.
     
  14. Rippon

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    No , only chapter 9 . You'd have to admit that that chapter alone is quite a bit to chew on for a one hour class .
     
  15. Dale-c

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    It is important for context to read the preceding chapters as well.

    There is simply no honest way to read chapters 8 and 9 from a synergistic point of view.

    Even though the Apostle Paul clearly refutes the common objections, the same objections are still raised by Christians today.
     
  16. webdog

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    The preceding chapters are not dealing with Israel solely like 9 - 11 are. It is like Paul took a break in his soteriology lesson to address those nearest and dearest to him.
     
  17. Dale-c

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    Have you actually read it?
    How can you possible say that chapter 9 is dealing solely with Israel?
    It deals with individuals.
    It clearly states that physical birth in the nation of Israel doesn't mean anything in and of itself.
    Not all are Israel who are descended from Israel.

    Do me a favor, please and give me a positive presentation on what you think Romans 9 is trying to say.
     
  18. webdog

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    I supplied a link earlier that from the surface seems to relate my beliefs on Romans 9 - 11. I don't have the time (nor desire) to go through Romans 9 - 11 again, as this is something I can recall doing numerous times here on the BB. A search may be your best option.
     
  19. David Lamb

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    Does that mean you think that all people who are not Calvinists believe that God has future plans for Israel as a nation? (Not being argumentative - just that I have never heard of a "Cal/non-Cal" divide on this particular matter).
     
  20. webdog

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    That would depend on their eschatalogical view, wouldn't it?
     

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