1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Does Life Begin at Conception?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by righteousdude2, Nov 8, 2011.

?
  1. Yes....

    32 vote(s)
    84.2%
  2. No...

    5 vote(s)
    13.2%
  3. To believe this is not radical or extreme...

    8 vote(s)
    21.1%
  4. Here's what I believe.... (see comment)

    2 vote(s)
    5.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    By the way thank you for answering my previous question. Jim I have a couple more questions. Based on your belief that life starts around the 6th or 7th month, is that which is growing in the mothers womb a child or just a growing lifeless mass that becomes a child (human being) when life is given according to your understanding of the time frame?
    Second question is, if it is not alive prior to the time frame you hold then does it go to heaven or is the mass treated like it never existed if it is destroyed (aborted) prior to the time frame which you believe life starts?
     
    #61 freeatlast, Nov 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2011
  2. glazer1972

    glazer1972 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2010
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, Life begins at conception.
     
  3. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,982
    Likes Received:
    2,615
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Some say that abortion is okay up until 30 days before birth.

    My answer, "Why not make that up till 30 days AFTER birth?"
     
  4. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don's post is the most coherent and since he deals with what I wrote and not what some of you seem to think I wrote (scratches head at Mandym's response), I'll use him to clarify what I think you both are arguing:

    Yes, they were just men, but they had something else going for them: God created them specially with a purpose. Why David and not one of his brothers? Because God saw to it that David had the talents, skills and experiences fulfill his place in history in the way God wanted that place filled.

    But none of this defines when a fertilized egg becomes a person. You can't get that interpretation from either set of scripture. All these scriptures say is that God specially appointed these two men to the places they filled in history.

    You seem to saying that by defining person hood at some time other than at conception that we might thwart God's will somehow. That some great person of history might not be born because I used birth control (sorry that's where this argument leads) or some poor girl had an abortion who didn't know any better to begin with. I don't believe we humans HAVE that power.

    If not Jeremiah, God would have used someone else. But in God's foreknowledge He could see that not only would there be a babe born named Jeremiah, but that babe could grow up to be a mighty prophet and so He arranged for it to happen as He knew it needed to.

    The difference is that there is no doubt that babe outside the womb has breath and blood. With a little care it will grow into an adult. Dependence on the care of a mother is NOT criteria for person hood. ANYONE could care for the living baby one it exits its mother's body. Breath and blood are the criteria for a living soul. In the womb the fetus is dependent on its mother's breath and blood. If she dies, it dies. Outside the womb it is clearly an independent human soul because a living babe has breath and blood independent of its mother.

    Traumatically injured persons are still person because they still have breath and blood independent (in most cases) of another human being. And if they don't, the decision to provide such artificially should be left up to the individual and their family. For me, you best not put me on a respirator if its going to leave me bound unconscious or barely conscious to a hospital bed with no hope of improvement. I'd rather step into heaven than be tied to a body where I can't even breathe or think for myself. If I'm fully conscious, it might be a consideration on a temporary basis, but, liberal that I am, I see nothing in scripture that requires me to use any and all artificial means to keep this shell alive for as long as possible.

    Our bodies are bound to fail. Why do we as Christians with the Great Hope that we have, fear dying? Doesn't make sense to me.
     
  5. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    Messages:
    11,048
    Likes Received:
    321
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And your argument seems to be saying that God only creates certain special people; which, in turn, means that you and I aren't special in God's eyes. Is that what you're saying?

    This is an invalid "difference." What you seem to indicate is that while in the womb, the babe doesn't have breath or blood. The opposite is true: the embryo, and later fetus, receive both breath (oxygen) and blood initially through the placenta, until such a time as the cardiopulmonary system develops.

    Scientifically, your statement would seem to apply to the embryo, not the fetus. The embryo (0-8 weeks) has a developing cardiopulmonary system that requires diffusion through the placenta. The fetus (beyond 8 weeks) has a developed cardiopulmonary system that is still growing, but is identifiable. Granted, oxygen is still provided through the placenta; but the fetus has a set of lungs that are processing oxygen through the amniotic fluid (similar to the deep-sea diving suits that use fluid-based systems to breath), and a heart that is pumping blood through its growing body.

    It's not dying that we fear. It's the repercussions of violating God's mandate against murder that we fear.

    ----- Edited to add:
    Let me expand on the fluid-based deep-sea diving systems. If someone puts on one of those, and starts "breathing" via the fluid, does that invalidate their capability of breathing? Does it invalidate their personhood for the time that they're wearing the suit? If not, then what's the difference between that and the fetus "breathing" via amniotic fluid?
     
    #65 Don, Nov 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2011
  6. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, I'm saying God selected (perhaps selects today even) a few people to hold a special place in history out of the multitudes of people born each year. The rest of us are simply born as is common to man. God cared enough about us in general to provide for our salvation and all that comes with, but I'm no more special than you are and neither of us was appointed by God to be a prophet or king or apostle. If that makes me not special, well I can still glorify the Lord for the salvation He brings. (oh yeah, I'm not a Calvinist, just in case you wondered)

    I think that IF we have to define person hood, legally, in the womb, 6-8 is a good place to choose place it. But we need to define what sort of rights the unborn person should hold, because that is another whole can of worms.
    Our sins are forgiven right? You think God is holding my potential sin of not wanting to be kept alive by artificial means against my salvation? Just who does He see when He looks at me? Me? Or Christ in me? Lets not become like the Pharasees who were so worried about keeping every little tidbit of the Law, that it became an unbearable burden. Christ said His burden is light. Let's keep it that way.

    The fact that the person breathed air and became a living soul at its birth (or by 6-8 week in the womb). It's person hood was already conferred and will continue until the shell dies, which if it tries to breath with that underwater apparatus for too long will be quick in coming. :eek: Until a fetus is 24-25 weeks along it can't breath air on its own because it's lungs aren't developed enough. Even then it takes a lot of medical support to help it along. This isn't perhaps a good comparison.

    I've thought of a better one though, granted its out of context:

    Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
    Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
    Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
    Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
    Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
    Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
    Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
    Eze 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
    Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
    Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.


    Now there they stood(lay?), a whole army of flesh and bone and apparently blood as well. Their lungs were fully formed, yet there was no breath in them. They weren't people yet, though they had potentially functioning bodies.

    We call birth a miracle. And so we should. Because my personal belief is that God breathes life into the infant, whether at the moment of birth or when it actually begins to breath through the amniotic fluid. But before that, its just the potential for life, just as those bodies that lay fully formed in that valley weren't alive until God breathed life into them.
     
  7. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,304
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by the water only, but by the water and the blood.

    Could these two verses imply the importance and the independence of a person from the placenta?
     
  8. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    7,304
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Is an abortion an act of man?

    Is a miscarriage a act of God?

    We know miscarriages (acts of God) happen from conception up to birth.

    Is it possible for there to be a spiritual miscarriage of one conceived by the Spirit of adoption?

    Just when is it said that, "Neither can they die any more."?

    When is absolute of one being a child of God unable to die anymore? Does Luke 20:35,36 answer that question?
     
    #68 percho, Nov 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2011
  9. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    1
    Freeatlast: quote: Based on your belief that life starts around the 6th or 7th month, is that which is growing in the mothers womb a child or just a growing lifeless mass that becomes a child (human being) when life is given according to your understanding of the time frame?
    Second question is, if it is not alive prior to the time frame you hold then does it go to heaven or is the mass treated like it never existed if it is destroyed (aborted) prior to the time frame which you believe life starts?
    ----------------------------------------------------
    The 6th or 7th month has been medically determined to be the time the fetus (or whatever you want to call it) can survive independent of the mother.

    I do not know the destiny of infants, children. I know that all the elect will be saved. I don't think anyone can definitely answer this question. When I first started as a youth pastor, my first event was the death of an infant to believing parents. I was Anglican, the infant had been sprinkled, so I said original sin was resolved and the child of believing parents would go to heaven...Remember, this was Anglican thought. What I said troubled me for years as I delved into covenant theology. To-day, I don't have an answer, to be honest.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  10. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    Messages:
    11,048
    Likes Received:
    321
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'm not a calvinist, either; and that's why I view scripture as saying that each of us is special to God, so special that He sent His only son to die for any of us who believe.

    I'm reading your viewpoint above as, God only sees "worth" in certain individuals; I disagree.

    I didn't make myself clear; I didn't include part of your previous response, and was intending to tailor my comment about "fear of dying" regarding abortion. The topic of euthanasia is completely different from abortion.

    At this point, we're denying that blood and oxygen are available to the unborn child from the moment of conception.

    The only problem with this example, would be that they were initially dead (vs. 1-"bones"). Can't say the same about the unborn. But that's the problems with analogies (both this one, and the one I used about fluid-based systems): I have yet to find a perfect analogy for anything.

    We've both presented our arguments, and we're both pretty steadfast in our opposing opinions. At this point, I have nothing further to add.
     
  11. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Messages:
    10,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you for your honesty.
     
  12. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    8,423
    Likes Received:
    1,160
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Frankly, to begin with I do not look at the "breath of life" as literally being the air we breathe. In my view of Divine creation God breathed the spirit into Adam, man/all men/human beings and “man” all men/humans became a living soul. By my perspective, your “criteria” to become a living soul would have to assume that somehow the air that we breathe has some sort of power to create a living soul; therefore, I believe that your interpretation that taking a breath of O² constitutes a living soul and using it to support your definition of life, or somehow that the "breath of life" defines the more secular term “personhood” and the rationalization of this justifying life as failing miserably in a theological sense.
     
    #72 Benjamin, Nov 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2011
  13. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    8,423
    Likes Received:
    1,160
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So much for medical determinations:

    "Meet Amillia Taylor - or what she looked like in October, when she was born as the world's youngest surviving premature baby. Amillia was born at a Miami hospital after less than 22 weeks of development. Since then she's been incubating and is expected to go home soon.

    Is there nothing more amazing than those teeny tiny translucent feet. Hold your own hand out in front of you, and imagine those feet poking through your fingers. She was 10 OUNCES when born (280 grams), and 9.5 inches (24 cm). That's just longer than the length of your hand."

    Call "it" Amilla...


    [​IMG]
     
    #73 Benjamin, Nov 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2011
  14. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    At heart, everything is a C/A issue. One is the Gospel, the other is not. Your argument is that God is not in control, that there are some that are not known in the womb. You can only argue that if you have a very small view of an unsovereign God.

    Despite your insistance to the contrary, you're really arguing the proabortion case.
     
  15. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    8,423
    Likes Received:
    1,160
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Only if you’re hyperly hung up in the fatalistic theology which is forced to conclude that Divine foreknowledge must equal predetermination of all things in order for God to fit into some weird systematic conclusion of all inclusiveness deterministic type of Divine sovereignty in order to be in control do all things always need to be looked at through Calvinistic glasses. Personally, I could argue that God knows all those in the womb without it hinging on the hyper-deterministic factor.
     
Loading...