Does regeneration and conversion happen simultaneously?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Theopolis, Feb 17, 2010.

  1. Theopolis

    Theopolis
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    What do you think .......

    Does regeneration and conversion happen simultaneously?

    I would appreciate it if you could provide more than just a simple yes or no answer.
     
  2. J.D.

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    I vacilate on the issue. One day I'm convinced that the Primitive Baptists are right, regeneration can significantly precede conversion. The next day I'm convinced they're wrong, that it is simultaneous. I need to do some hard praying about it.
     
  3. Marcia

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    I think regeneration and conversion are the same thing. What is conversion but being born again, which is regeneration.
     
  4. Allan

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    I adhere to the fact they are almost simultaneous, in that no discernable time happens between them. But that faith (conversion) does precede regeneration in time. Again, albeit with no discernable time difference between the two. - IOW, at the monement of one.. the other is true.
     
  5. Theopolis

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    OK, Then do you believe that the Holy Spirit's work of conviction is an action taken on men He has regenerated, or on unregenerated men?
     
  6. Allan

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    As I stated in my post you just quoted:
     
  7. Theopolis

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    That didn't answer my question.

    The question once again was ....

    Does the Holy Spirit do His convicting work on the regenerate or the unregenerate?
     
  8. Allan

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    If faith precedes regeneration, what do you think the answer is?
     
  9. pinoybaptist

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    on men he has regenerated, for the reason that these are men (and women) whom Christ has already redeemed.
    Those whom Christ did not redeem are already judged and will one day stand at the Great White Throne and their sentences carried out, so why convict them ?

    Revelation 22:10-11 - And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust , let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy , let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
     
  10. Theopolis

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    Why can't you answer any of my questions? If you prefer not to just tell me and I won't ask you any.
     
  11. Allan

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    Because the answer has already be written out and is as plain as the full moon high in the prairie night sky on clear night.
     
  12. Marcia

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    I was definitely convicted before I was regenerated! I even gave up astrology about 4 weeks before I was saved because I was getting "impressions" that God wanted me to give it up, but I did not understand why. I did not even believe totally in this God yet, and certainly not in the real Jesus, and ironically, I did not believe in the Holy Spirit at all! Looking back now, I can see the Holy Spirit started working on me (but not in me) about 6 months prior to salvation. If I had died during that time, I would have gone to hell.

    After I believed, the Holy Spirit indwelt me; I am even aware of that moment. That was when I was regenerated.
     
  13. Allan

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    Well said.
     
  14. RAdam

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    You were lead by God to give up astrology. Consider Romans 8:14 - "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." The leadership of the Spirit in a person's life is evidence of that person already being a child of God.
     
  15. Theopolis

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    I would be inclined to believe that the instant that the Holy Spirit began working on you was evidence that you were regenerated, and therefore able to sense the Holy Spirit convicting you and leading you to repentance and belief. In other words, I believe that regeneration opens the communication lines between God and us. It makes us spiritually alive and atuned to God, at which point we become able to sense His convicting of our consciences, thereby drawing us to Himself.
     
  16. BaptistBob

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    And you think that is based upon context?
     
  17. Winman

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    Many people are influenced by the Holy Spirit but not saved. Practically the whole world agrees that it is wrong to lie, steal, commit adultery, murder...
    This comes from God. Without God man would be utterly evil, every man would do what seemed right and advantageous to himself. But all of mankind are held in check to a degree by God's word and the Holy Spirit that is in the world.

    But that is altogether different from being saved. To be saved you have to trust Jesus Christ as your saviour. Lot's of folks listen to a great deal of God's word and are led by the Spirit. I work with a young fellow who is a Jehovah's Witness, and he is truly a good person. He shows up to work everyday on time and does an excellent job. He is quiet and never curses or says bad jokes. He doesn't smoke or drink, he is a faithful husband and father to his wife and two children. He brings his JW bible to work and reads it on breaks.

    Now, I realize he is not saved, but as men go, he is an exceptionally good man. He believes the ten commandments and much of the scripture, although he believes you are saved through works. I have had a chance to speak to him a few times about salvation, and have even shown him from his own bible that a person needs to trust Christ to be saved. But it is hard for him to shake a religion he has known all his life, his parents were devout JWs.

    So, saying a person is led by the Spirit does not mean they are saved. All people are to a degree led by the Spirit of God, but you must personally trust Christ to be born again.
     
  18. RAdam

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    Well, let's look at the context then.

    9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    12. Therefore, brethren, we are not debtors, not the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    13. For if ye live after the flesh ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    14. For as many as are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15. For ye have not received the Spirit of bondage again to fear, but the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    etc.

    The context is clearly discussing regenerate people. Paul says the differentiating factor between an unregenerate and a regenerate person is the indwelling Spirit of God. He then says, because we are now alive to God and shall be resurrected by the same God who raised up Jesus from the dead, we are debtors. But, says Paul, we aren't debtors to the flesh, to live after the flesh. Rather, we are debtors to the Spirit, to live after the Spirit. He breaches the subject of leadership of the Spirit and then says, "for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Then Paul says we haven't exchanged our chains to the flesh for more chains, but rather we've now received the Spirit of adoption. We have now been made heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that are children of God.

    If one is following the leadership of the Spirit in their lives, which leaving astrology certainly displays, then one is showing that he/she is a child of God. How does that go against the context?
     
  19. Theopolis

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    Contrary to your comment Scripture states......
    Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    Trusting Christ is the evidence and fruit that a person has been reborn
     
  20. Winman

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    I believe conviction occurs before a person is regenerated and that it is shown in scripture.

    Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


    Note that when these Jews heard Peter's preaching they were deeply convicted (they were pricked in their heart). Notice that they realized their peril (Men and brethren, what shall we do?).

    These men were convicted, and they were fearful. They realized they were responsible for crucifying the very Son of God. I don't know about you, but I would have been very fearful too.

    But now notice Peter tells them to repent. What does he mean here? I believe he was telling them to turn from unbelief to belief and trust on Christ. They had believed Jesus to be a blasphemer. This is what the priests had convinced the people, the formal charge against Jesus. But now they realized that Jesus was the promised Christ the Jews had waited on for centuries. They already knew he was the one who would save them from their sins.

    John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

    I show this verse to show what the people understood about the coming Christ. Even the Samaritans knew the Christ would come and save them from their sins.

    So, Peter is telling them to turn from this false belief they had held about Jesus and believe that he was this promised Christ, and to be baptized in his name for the remission or forgiveness of their sins.

    And now, very important, note that Peter tells them if they do repent and trust on Christ that they will then receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. This is the indwelling Holy Spirit that abides with a believer forever.

    What Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers fail to understand is that the Holy Spirit first works outside a man, on the exterior. He convicts a man, and teaches a man the truth. When a man hears the word of God through the Spirit and believes it, then and only then does the Spirit enter a man and regenerate him.

    These Jews were convicted by the Holy Spirit, but from the exterior, from the outside. When they believed on Jesus, then the Holy Spirit entered them.

    John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Here Jesus was speaking to his disciples. This was before Jesus was glorified, so the Holy Spirit was not yet given to believers. Notice Jesus says the Holy Spirit is at this time dwelling with them, but afterward shall be "in you".

    This is what Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers misunderstand. The Holy Spirit first works on a man from the outside, but when a man believes he enters and dwells on the inside of a man.

    If the Jews on the day of Pentacost were already regenerated to be convicted, Peter would not have told them they would receive the Holy Spirit, because he would have already been in them.
     
    #20 Winman, Feb 20, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2010

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