Does Regeneration Precede Faith? Part II

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jerry Shugart, Dec 5, 2011.

  1. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Messages:
    952
    Likes Received:
    0
    R.C. Sproul, one of the leading Calvinists in the world today, defines the concept of "monergistic regeneration" in the following way:

    "When the term 'monergism' is linked with the word 'regeneration' the phrase describes an action by which God the Holy Spirit works on a human being without that person's assistance or cooperation" [emphasis added](R.C. Sproul, What is Reformed Theology? [Grand Rapids: Baker Books], 184).

    Therefore, by this reasoning, since a person plays no part in his regeneration then "regeneration precedes faith."

    Sproul says that "regeneration" occurs when we were dead in trepasses and are made alive together with Christ:

    "The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: '...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)' (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' " (Sproul, Regeneration Precedes Faith).

    Let us look at a verse that speaks of the same thing so therefore we can understand that the following words are about "regeneration":

    "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions" (Col.2:12-13).

    We can also see that this regeneration does not happen until a person has his transgressions or sins forgiven--"having forgiven us all our transgressions."

    We also know that no one has their sins forgiven until they believe:

    "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43; NIV).

    Common sense dictates that since no one has their sins forgiven until they believe then no one is regenerated until they believe. But the Calvinists teach that regeneration precedes faith.
     
    #1 Jerry Shugart, Dec 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2011
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    I understand what I am about to say will be rejected and ignored. HOwever, being the good sport that I am, I will give it a good college second effort.

    Eternal life by quickening has to do with the Spirit of God IN you which affects your condition from being spiritually dead to spiritually alive - this live condition is eternal life because it is the life of the Eternal Spirit of God indwelling you.

    However, when you were spiritually dead in regard to your actual CONDITION you were additional eternally dead in regard to your POSITION before the law of God. Indeed, it is this LEGAL condition or sentence of condemnation that originally brought about your actual CONDITION.

    Quickening by the Spirit of God CHANGES your actual spiritual CONDITION.

    However, it is faith in Christ that CHANGES your LEGAL POSITION before the Law of God. That change is called "JUSTIFICATION by faith." Justification is a legal forensic term that deals with your LEGAL POSITION before the law NOT your actual SPIRITUAL condition in regard to your own person.

    Spiritual regeneration gives SPIRITUAL LIFE in your person (received passively) but is actively expressed in repentance and faith in Christ.

    Faith in Christ JUSTIFIES or provides a NEW SENTENCE by the law from condemnation unto spiritual death but justification of eternal life "in Christ" as far as your LEGAL POSITION "in Christ."

    By regeneration you are CREATED IN CHRIST spiritually and that is why good works can follow because of your changed CONDITION - Eph. 2:10

    By justification you are LEGALIZED IN CHRIST positionally and that is why you are a LEGAL heir "son" of God.

    The former gives SPIRITUAL LIFE in your own person or condition. The latter gives you LEGAL LIFE in Christ's own person as your POSITION legally in relationship to the law.

    So, there is spiritual life prior to faith and Legal life as a result of faith and both are ETERNAL LIFE. The former is your CONDITION in your body on earth while the latter is your POSITION in Christ in heaven.
     
    #2 The Biblicist, Dec 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2011
  3. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    So, IOW, there's "life" prior to eternal life? The bible sure doesn't support this. I am not saying you see it this way, I'm just sayin'.....
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    No, there is SPIRITUAL LIFE (which is eternal) by IMPARTATION to your own person before there is JUDICIAL LIFE (which is eternal by sentence of law = justification) by IMPUTATION in regard to your legal position.

    The first is an eternal change of condition where the latter is an eternal change of position

    The first has to do with birth as a child (tekna) where the latter has to do with rights as a son (huios)

    "We are all children (huioi) of God by faith" - Gal. 3:26

    But we are born children "teknia" of God by the Spirit.
     
    #4 The Biblicist, Dec 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2011
  5. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Are you advocating pre-faith regeneration, or post-faith?
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    Carefully reread my post and you will see regeneration logically precedes conversion which logical precedes justfication. I say logically, because there is no chronological separation between them any more than there is between the bullet and the hole.

    I am saying there are TWO different kinds of eternal life taught in scripture. One that is SPIRITUAL and reflects your personal condition in you on earth - inward man.

    One that is LEGAL and reflects your personal position in Christ in heaven.

    Hence, eternal life spiritual precedes conversion while eternal life legal follows conversion (faith).

    The former "eternal life IS regneration; the latter eternal life IS justification. Conversion is IN BETWEEN the two. The former is the logical cause of faith while the latter is the logical result of faith.
     
  7. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3

    Jesus stated in John 6,"Except ye eat of my flesh and drink of my blood, ye have no life in you.". There is no life outside of Christ. We get life because we have been placed in Christ, not to be "made alive" to be placed in Christ. You're putting a step in the salvation process that's not even there to begin with.
     
  8. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Messages:
    952
    Likes Received:
    0
    convicted1, I know that your question was not directed to me but please consider the following verse:

    "...even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with (syzōopoieō) Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" (Eph.2:5).

    Here the Greek word syzōopoieō is translated "hath made us alive together."

    The Greek word syzōopoieō is made up of two words, zōopoieō and syn.

    The word zōopoieō means to "make alive, give life" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    The word syn means "with, besides, accompany...a primary preposition denoting union" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    So when a person is regenerated he is made alive together with Christ or placed in union with Him. The following verse desribes that union we have with the Lord Jesus and it also describes the life we enjoy when we are made alive together with Him:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).


    That life which we are made alive "together" with Him is described as "eternal life." John Calvin says the following about 1 John 5:11:

    "But the Apostle, that he might keep us together in Christ, again repeats that life is found in him; as though he had said, that no other way of obtaining life has been appointed for us by God the Father. And the Apostle, indeed, briefly includes here three things: that we are all given up to death until God in his gratuitous favor restores us to life; for he plainly declares that life is a gift from God: and hence also it follows that we are destitute of it, and that it cannot be acquired by merits; secondly, he teaches us that this life is conferred on us by the gospel, because there the goodness and the paternal love of God is made known to us; lastly, he says that we cannot otherwise become partakers of this life than by believing in Christ" (John Calvin, Commentary on 1 John 5:11).


    Calvin says that 'life" is found in Him and "that no other way of obtaining life has been appointed for us by God the Father." He also says that "we cannot otherwise become partakers of this life than by believing in Christ."

    Of course that is right and that is exactly how we are made "alive together with Christ"--our "life is in the Son." Calvin was also right when he said that no one receives eternal life until he believes:

    "Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life"
    (1 Tim.1:16).

    You are exactly right when you said:
     
  9. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3

    Very well stated!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  10. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3

    So if I read Calvin right, the Calvinists believe in something he didn't?
     
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    Sorry, but regeneration obtains only spiritual union with Christ but justification obtains legal union with Christ. They are no more the same than regeneration is the same as conversion!

    So you are again confusing things that differ. That is what you have to do to justify your positions.
     
  12. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Messages:
    952
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would say that if the Calvinists are going to cling to their idea that regeneration precedes faith then they must repudiate the words of Calvin which I quoted.
     
  13. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    I don't have to justify anything. There is no eternal life outside of Christ. Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the LIFE(John 14:6). You don't get eternal life(spiritually or positionally) outside of Christ.
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    You are certainly free to believe whatever you like! However, spiritual union with Christ is not one and the same as legal or POSITIONAL union with Christ.

    I have made my position clear and I am out of here.
     
  15. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Messages:
    952
    Likes Received:
    0
    Of course you are right and no one can possibly have any kind of union with Christ while he remains defiled in his sins and has not had his sins forgiven.

    Therefore no one can possibly be in union with the Lord Jesus until he believes:

    "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43; NIV).

    A.W. Pink, a well known Calvinist writer of the twentieth century, wrote that "there can be no point of contact between God and His Christ with a sinful man until he is regenerated. There can be no lawful union between two parties who have nothing vital in common. A superior and an inferior nature may be united together, but never contrary natures" (A.W. Pink, Regeneration or the New Birth, Chapter 1).

    Of course Pink is correct as witnessed by the following words of the Apostle Paul:

    "For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor.6:14).

    A person is not declared righteous until he believes:

    "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Ro.10:10).


    A person does not receive the righteousness which is of God until he believes so therefore he cannot be in "union" with Christ until he believes. After all, "what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?"


    Despite this the Calvinists teach that a person is regenerated and this happens before faith. In order to believe that we must believe that unrighteousness can indeed have fellowship with righteousness despite the evidence to the contrary.
     
    #15 Jerry Shugart, Dec 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2011
  16. Gup20

    Gup20
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    1
    Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

    Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    By the logic of Calvinism, faith is a work, and therefore The Law and Faith are one covenant. However, the Bible shows that there are two covenants - The Law and Faith. Faith is not of the law, as your argument regarding Position and Condition presupposes.

    Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    The two covenants - The Law, and Faith - are the only means whereby one can be declared righteous (Gal 4:22-31, Rom 4). Once you sin, you have failed the entire law, and must be judged by the whole law.

    Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

    The righteousness that comes by faith was by grace and promise. This was instituted 430 years before The Law was given.

    Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

    So the law can't effect salvation by promise through grace by faith. Paul makes this abundantly clear in Gal 3:1-3 and Romans 7.

    Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

    Pauls point here is that dead men are not under the law. Paul says that THE LAW IS FULFILLED IN US BY OUR DEATH.

    Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    The law says if you sin, you die. If you don't sin you live. By the death of our flesh, we fulfill the law. Christ was the only one to fulfill it by keeping the whole law (and thereby finding life).

    Because we cannot keep the law (and indeed because of our sin are dead to it), we cannot attain righteousness through the keeping of the law. Therefore the only option available to us to be righteous is through the covenant of faith.

    Thereby we see that BOTH covenants are fulfilled in our own beings -- we are dead in our flesh because of sin, but we are alive in our spirits because of faith. Faith does not justify us according to the law... we are dead to the law... but we are made alive in spirit (though we be dead in the flesh) by faith because of grace. So we see the conflict within us... the part of us that is dead struggling against the part of us that is alive.

    Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

    If that were so, there would be no physical death for the believer. But scripture says that sin was condemned to die in the flesh so that the law would be fulfilled in us. Jesus says:

    Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    You are not a legal heir... you are heir by promise. It is not through the righteousness of the law, but rather it is through the righteousness of faith.

    Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    One of the problems with this is that if you try to justify yourself by the law, then you are beholden to never break it, and if you did break it again in some future time, you would be subject once again to death.

    But if the law is fulfilled and you are dead in the flesh, you are dead to the law forever, because you will have been released from the law. The law, then, is fulfilled in us. But that law has only the the power to give death, but not the power to regenerate life once death has come. For this regeneration, we need the righteousness that is grace by faith.
     
  17. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3

    Why thank you for the kindly advice there Brother.


    Show me anywhere where someone has eternal life outside of Christ. Come on Brother. It's time to lay it out for all to see.


    Also show me where anyone has Spiritual union with Christ and not being saved....... I've got some news for you, you will not find any scriptures that support your views on either of these topics...
     
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    That is correct! There is no aspect of salvation outside Jesus Christ for anyone at any time between Genesis and Revelation.

    However, I never said there was any part of salvation outside of Christ! I simply explained that there are different ways a child of God is "in Christ." For example

    1. We are "in him" by election before the world began - Eph. 1:4
    2. We are "in Christ" by representation - Rom. 5:12-22
    3. We are "created in Christ" by regeneration - Eph.2:10
    4. We are "in Christ" symbolically by baptism - Rom 6:4-5; Gal. 3:27
    5. We are "in Christ" legally by justification - Rom. 3:24-4:25; Gal. 3:10-17
    6. We are "in Christ" experientally by our walk through faith - Col. 2:6
    7. We are "in Christ" metaphorically by church membership - 1 Cor. 12:27

    We are "his workmanship created in Christ" (Eph. 2:10a) or in Christ by regeneration/new birth. The fact that it is God's work, and a work of CREATION (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) and an inward work of washing and renewing by the Spirit of God (Tit. 3:5) demonstrates the human will plays no active role (Jn. 1:13) simply because we cannot create anything or change our own heart. Hence, we our passive in this work of creation rather than active.

    Spiritual union with the Spirit of Christ is effected by regeneration whereby we obtain eternal life because we are united with the Spirit of God. To be in union with the Spirit of God is to no longer be separated from God (spiritual death - Ephesians 4:18) but to have SPIRITUAL life.

    Regeneration is God giving us a new heart and new spirit (Ezek.. 36:26) as the "cause" (Ezek. 36:27) for our volitional response in good works (Eph. 2:10 "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works") it is that initial act where God works in us "both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Philip. 2:13)

    Our ACTIVE response to regeneration, creation of a new heart is repentance of sin and faith in Christ. With our former heart we hated light and loved darkness. The New heart loves light and hates darkness. Hence, the transition from loving darkness to hating darkness is repentance and the transition from hating light to loving light is coming in faith to Christ (Jn. 3:18-20). This transition is "wrought of God" (Jn. 3:21).

    The consequence of faith in Christ is justification. We already have be placed in SPIRITUAL union with Christ at regeneration and have SPIRITUAL LIFE which is eternal by virtue we are in Union with God.

    However, by faith we are placed in LEGAL union "before God" in regard to the sentence of His law. The previous sentence by the Law was "condemnation" unto eternal death. When a person believes in Christ that sentence from God is changed unto "eternal life." Hence, Justification places us in the LEGAL POSITION "before God" of eternal life.

    Notice the eternal life in John 3:16 by faith is in juxtiposition with previous "condemnation" in John 3:17-18.

    Notice the eternal life in John 5:24 by faith is in juxtiposition with the promise not to come into later "condemanation".

    Notice Galatians 3:26 that we are "children" (Gr. huioi legal sons) of God by faith and Paul goes on to talk about the legality of inheritance as sons (Gal. 4:1-5).

    However, whenever the Scriptures talk about being children (Gr. teknia) by new birth it is always in connection with the Greek term "tekna" and NEVER "huios" and always in relationship to the Spirit (Jn. 3:3-6) and not justification. Why? Because they deal with two completely different aspects of our salvation. The new birth deals with our relationship with God as Spirit born children (Gr. Tekna) and being "created in christ" whereas believing in Christ deals with our relationship with God as Legal heirs ("huioi" sons) and being justified "in Christ" by legal position. The former is spiritual union by new birth whereas the latter is legal union by faith. The former is eternal life by new birth the latter is eternal life by sentence of law in contrast to the former sentence of condemnation unto spiritual death. The former is partaking of eternl life IN OUR OWN PERSON ON EARTH while the latter is partaking of eternal life IN OUR POSITION IN HEAVEN. The former is spiritual while the latter is legal.

    1 John 5:1 demonstrates that logically (not chronologically) we are born of God spiritually (Perfect tense "born") previous to "believeth" (present tense participle) and that believing is the consequence rather than the cause of new birth. We are passive in being born of God as that is a CREATIVE work only God can do but we are active in our response "with the heart man believeth unto righteousness" (Rom. 10:10).

    There is no such thing as a believing but unborn child of God nor a born but unbelieving child of God. The new birth is the cause and believing is the effect.

    This cause and effect relationship is taught by several other scriptures besides 1 John 5:1. It is taught in Ezekiel 36:26 versus Ezek. 36:27 ("cause"). It is taught in comparing Deut. 29:4 with Ezek. 36:26. It is taught in John 1:12 versus Jn. 1:13. It is taught in 2 Cor. 3:3-6. It is taught in 2 Cor. 4:5-6. It is taught 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5. It is taught in 2 Thes. 2:13; It is taught in John 3:3-11 versus 3:14-16; It is taught in John 3:18-21; It is taught in John 10:26 versus Jn. 10:27-28; etc., etc.

    It is taught by the fact that faith is the fruit rather than the cause of the Spirit of God in us (Gal. 5:22). It is taught by the fact that faith is "by grace" (Rom. 4:16) and a "not of us but a gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). It is taught in the Old Testament in many ways but is best expressed in the words of the prophet "turn us and we shall be turned" showing the logical order between what God does as the cause ("turn us") versus the consequence ("and we shall be turned."
     
  19. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is false and multiple scriptures refute it.

    Jn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    Does this verse say "and that living ye might believe"? NO. It says, "and that believeing ye might have life".

    You have to believe to have life. There is absolutely no scripture that supports a person has spiritual life before faith. You cannot show a single verse that supports this. But there are many that show a person must believe to have life.

    Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    The most famous verse in all of scripture, and it says that whosoever believes "should not" perish, but "have" everlasting life.

    Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    This verse completely refutes your view and shows believeing is the cause, life is the effect. Likewise, he that believes not shall not see life.

    Your view is unscriptural.
     
  20. Gup20

    Gup20
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    1
    The best word I can use to describe this is delusional. None of the scriptures you reference speak to cause. The one that comes closest is 1 John 5:1, but even this doesn't speak to cause... only that if condition A presently exists then condition B also presently exists... there is nothing there denoting which caused the other. It actually EQUATES them.

    However, here are some verses which actually do demonstrate cause -- explicitly:

    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    Here it says IF you believe you will be saved. It clearly sets being saved as a condition of believing, demonstrating that being saved is CAUSED by believing.

    Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Here it says they cannot call on him if they don't believe - again setting the order of things as preaching, hearing, believing, saved.

    Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    It does not say "Abraham was made righteous and so he believed God." It says his faith made him righteous. This is the "righteousness of faith". It's clear that his faith caused him to be righteous.

    Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    This verse CLEARLY and explicitly says that they were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise AFTER they believed.
     

Share This Page

Loading...