Does regeneration precede faith?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Revmitchell, Apr 4, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,361
    Likes Received:
    789
    It is often claimed that regeneration is a gift of God that comes directly from God to man and that man is passive in his faith of the things of God with regard to salvation. Let's take a look at that claim.


    Scripture makes it clear that faith comes from the hearing of the word of God. Romans 10:17

    Scripture says we have been born through the word of God. 1 Peter 1:23

    Scripture tells us that God chose to give us salvation though His word. James 1:18

    Scripture tells us that salvation is a gift that is provided because of the faith of man. Ephesians 2:8 Further Abraham's salvation was a direct response by God to his faith in God. Romans 4:3

    There is no scripture that tells us that we are first regenerated and then we believe and then are saved. The use of the word regenerated is translated in scripture as born. Scripture makes is clear that we can be born of the flesh or born of the spirit. (John 3:6)

    Scripture is clear that man is not passive in this birth. Man must receive Christ.(John 1:12) Man is justified after his belief. (Romans 3:26) Belief and confession are the responsibility of man (Romans 10:9-10) Calling on God is required of man (Romans 10:13)

    The further question is often reasonably asked does the response of man toward God and is available grace in salvation require that any such response is a work that would cause man to be able to claim any amount of credit for the salvation God has provided?

    The answer to this would be no. That which is considered works in scripture is always a reference to the Law. This was made clear when Romans chapter three where Paul is addressing Jews. He said "Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Then in chapter four Paul states of Abraham that he was not justified world (the law) but because of his belief in God it was counted to him for righteousness. Abraham's active participation and response to God was not a work (the law) it was simply him responding to God with no mention of prior regeneration.

    Trying to turn any active participation by man toward God into a work is contrary to scripture and fails to see the bigger picture. That is that no matter what response God requires of man without the work of the cross, without the authority to give salvation, without the power to provide salvation, the response of man can have no effect. Therefore because of this no action or active response on the part of man can ever be considered a work or something to claim credit for with regard to our salvation. A biblical work is following the OT law and not active participation by man. God says I will accept your response toward me and will apply my atonement to your life as He did with Abraham.
     
  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    One must be of God to hear Gods words John 8:47 !
     
  3. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eph 2:8 says nothing about the Faith of man! That's a false and invalid statement! Man by nature has no Faith that pleases God Hebrew 11:6 since man in the flesh of nature can't please God Rom 8:8 !
     
  4. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    We wait for the redemption of our bodies.
    Do you have yours already? Are you not also in the flesh? Or has your flesh been redeemed? What kind of special person are you?
    Furthermore, I thought you were a Calvinist. Don't Calvinists believe in the Depravity of man? What happened to yours? Even Christians still maintain an Adamic nature after they are saved. Or are you special--entirely sanctified and without sin. You don't have a sin nature any more? Perfect and sinless?

    You better read 1John 1:8,10
    --That which causes you to sin; I believe we call it "the flesh."
    You still have it. It is the flesh (your flesh) that does not please God.
    You better do something about it.
     
  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rabbit Trail!
     
  6. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    No it isn't. It is a refutation that you can't answer. Therefore you come up with this ridiculous answer and everyone can see right through you.
     
  7. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah it is, you way out in left field! Maybe you need to read my post. Do that and explain my points back to me and then we will discuss or debate the points!
     
  8. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Debate works two ways. I refuted your post. Now it is your turn.
     
  9. The Archangel

    The Archangel
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes Received:
    0
    A few things...

    Ephesians 2 says no such thing. In fact, Paul's corpus completely rules out God's grace and salvation itself as a quid pro quo. If a "gift" is given because of something we have or do, it is no longer a gift, but a wage. Paul makes this quite clear.

    The very definition of grace is "unmerited favor." You would have us believe that grace is "merited favor."

    Further, when Abram was called out of Ur, he was not a Yahweh worshiper; he was an idol worshiper. Why would God approach a faithless idol worshiper who had no faith in Him?

    You are incorrect as far as John 3 goes. It's true the word "regenerated" doesn't appear in John 3 and the word for birth--gennao--does. But the word anothen appears after born in John 3:3, anothen meaning either "again" or "from above." Knowing how John typically uses dual-meaning words, he's likely intending to convey "born again from above."

    Now, what you've said really falls off the rails is this statement: "Scripture is clear that man is not passive in this birth." The tense of the verb gennao is passive. The text literally says that man is passive--he is acted upon by God. Just as a baby is passive in his or her birth, so man is passive in his or her being born again.

    Here's the catch, though. Man isn't saved by regeneration. Regeneration will inevitably and irresistibly lead to man's salvation, but regeneration is not salvation. Man must respond to God in repentance and faith. Regeneration enables this response.

    So, man responds God's work; God does not respond to man. God responding to man is the essence of every pagan and false religion. False religion says "I must do something to get god to do something... I must show my devotion so that he will act favorably to me." True Christianity is exactly the opposite: We respond to God because He has already set His favor upon us.

    The Archangel
     
  10. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    1. Man is passive.
    This simply means that the object is not know.

    Nicodemus was born again (by whom?)
    Jesus was baptized (by whom?)
    I was saved (by whom?)

    So it is put in the passive tense. So what. That doesn't prove anything.

    2. Man isn't saved by regeneration...regeneration will inevitably lead to man's salvation.
    --What a lark! Regeneration and salvation happen simultaneously. Regeneration does not "inevitably" lead to salvation. They both happen at the same time. Here, I think you are speaking of something totally unbiblical. Perhaps you say this to prop up your ideas on Cornelius--I don't know. But regeneration and salvation happen at the same time.

    3. Man responds to God's work.
    I believe we all agree here. I don't think any different was said. Christ did the work. He died on the cross. He paid the penalty. He rose again. He offers salvation to each and everyone as a gift.
    We respond in faith by accepting that gift, or as many will, rejecting that gift.

    4. As was clearly stated early and defined in the Word of God, "faith" is not a work. It is not classified as a work.
    Will you pay me for my "faith". If you classify "faith" as a work then you contradict the Word of God which pits faith against works. See Romans 4:1-5.
     
  11. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let me know when you are ready to discuss my points made!
     
  12. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    Man by nature in the flesh doesn't have Faith to respond with, since Faith pleases God Hebrew 11:6 and man in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 !
     
  13. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    So what happens when you act out of the flesh? You don't please God either. Correct? Does that mean you don't have faith?
     
  14. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    You have man doing something that the scriptures say he can't do!
     
  15. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,086
    Likes Received:
    139
    Brother Mitchell,

    You were passive in your physical birth, likewise it is with your spiritual birth. All analogies of the new birth presented in the scriptures suggest an irresistible power working on a passive object. In particular, the acquisition of spiritual life is presented in the scriptures as being analogous to:

    1) birth - Jn 1:11-13, Jn 3:3-8
    2) quickening - Eph 2:1-5, Col 2:13
    3) translation - Col 1:12-13
    4) resurrection - Jn 5:25-29
    5) creation - 2Cor 5:17, Eph 2:10

    No individual experiencing any of the above transitions ever contributed in the least degree to the transition, nor have they ever successfully resisted it.



    Faith is a work. "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith" (1 Thessalonians 1:3a), also, "and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power" (2 Thessalonians 1:11b) and , "28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John 6:28-29),

    Also, concerning your example of Abraham being justified by faith, he was born again prior to being justified by faith according to scripture. Why do I say this? Hebrews 11.8 states that in Genesis 11.31 Abraham left Ur by faith. If Abraham had faith then he was already born again. Galatians 5.22 lists faith as a fruit of the Spirit. You have to have the Spirit to have its fruit. Therefore Abraham had the Spirit when he left Ur 10 years before he was justified by faith.

    -Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15; let’s look at the preceding chapters to see Abraham’s spiritual character.
    O.T. examples:
    Genesis: 11:31 Abraham (then Abram) leaves Ur by faith (see Hebrews 11:8) to follow God’s will.
    Genesis: 12.1 Abraham speaks verbally with God.
    Genesis: 12.8 Abraham built an altar to God.
    Genesis: 14.19 Melchisedec testified that Abraham was blessed by God.
    Genesis: 14.10 Abraham gave tithes to Melchisedec, a priest to God.
     
  16. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    What do you mean? Man can't act "out of the flesh"?
    Man can't act so that he doesn't please God?
    This is the state of all mankind. I thought you were a Calvinist?
     
  17. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you ready to address my points ?
     
  18. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Are you going to address mine?
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
     
  20. PreachTony

    PreachTony
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK - If I might provide some insight for you into SBM, although I'm sure you already know this...
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...