"Does regeneration precede or follow faith?" I'm writing a paper on this

I think this may be the confusing element in this conversation.

Regeneration BOTH precedes and follows faith.

It exists SO one CAN believe and it is maintained by one believing.

It is like a newborn baby. Life existed before breath. But breath must take place if life is to continue.

Spiritual life exists BEFORE faith but faith must take place if this spiritual life is to continue. Thank God it does and it always will because faith a gift of God- it is not contingent upon man- but it is still a condition for continued spiritual life just as breath is a condition for continued physical life.

You must be born so you can breathe.

You must be born again so you can believe.

You must breathe so you can continue to live,

Just so you must believe so you can continue to have spiritual life.

Regeneration both precedes AND follows faith.

 

This is a tremendous statement! Thanks for this kyredneck!

 

When God called me to his ministry he called me to proclaim His everlasting gospel. God added to church not me.

 

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Very good!

I don't know how anyone can argue with this logic.

 

"The gospel is not to be offered, it is to be proclaimed." A.W. Pink

That is a great comment....I will have to remember that.

 

If the gospel message were as you say it is then Christ must have been wrong about the stony ground that received the seed.

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

The stony ground repersents a man who received the word or seed. When the seed starts to grow the sun comes up and scorches it.
Notice the stony ground heard the Word and received it

Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

You might ask where do we get the root? the root is a result of the study of the Word.
The idea that the natural man is unable to hear the word isn't true. as is the idea that God cannot convince a natural man of the gospel with out saving him first isn't true. All things are possible with God.
I have a lot of respect for Calvinism yet I still disagree with it.

I disagree that man has to be regenerated first because if the man is to be saved he is already chosen to be, by God. The very Word regenerate means renew and is defined as being saved or, born again. There simply is no Salvation with out faith and grace comes to us through our faith. Eph 2:8. I think we agree that we need grace to be saved and if so and it comes through the faith that God gives to us while still in our sins. Which means we receive faith by hearing the gospel. Not by regeneration.

Romans 8 does not say man must be regenerated in order to hear or receive the gospel. So where is this consistency? There is a difference between being subject to the Law and God being able to convince a natural man of the gospel. It is certainly strange that man, any man, understands that if they break the Law. They will have to pay for it. Which by the way comes from God's word and then there are some who claim those same men cannot understand the gospel.

Again there is a difference between seeing the kingdom and understanding the gospel. There is nothing in John 3 that would lead me to believe I must be regenerated or saved before I can receive the gospel. No one living has seen the kingdom.

Spurgeon was a famous minister but that is all he was and even that didn't make him right. Simply there is no said death nail to faith before Salvation there simply is no evidence of pre Salvation regeneration. All you have given has been given before and it doesn't prove this theory at all.

Most of the Jews at the time of Jesus rejected Christ yet even Paul said they have a zeal for God
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

There submission to God in accepting Christ was the only reason they weren't saved. Yet Calvinism would have us all saved with out submission. Just not possible.
MB

 

The message I get from all that the Lord did was to give us an example of His perfect faith. It all led to His trial and death which had even a greater message and that is He died for our sins all of them past, present, and future. He pave the way as well as being the only way to have an eternity with Him in His Fathers house.
We all will exist for eternity but the where we exist and in what conditions is so very important.

All these verses below have the same message and belief is always first.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We have to have faith for both confession and belief.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house

No where does the Bible say we are saved before faith.
MB

 

EWF, , your resident "non-reformed" friend thinks it should be both, proclaimed and offered, passionately, articulately and honestly.

 

Why all this agony and fear? Sweating blood? Death? From Isaiah 53 when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he hath poured out his soul unto death: How many of you believe this once living soul died for you? Death? That his soul lay in hell (hades) for three days and three nights? Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead: Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. John 10:17,18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life,(soul) that I might take (AV translated receive 133 take 106) it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take (receive same as above) it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Now taking under consideration the number of times it is said God, implying the Father raised him from the dead let be ask:

Does the word of God say the soul of Jesus was regenerated from hades (the grave, the place of the dead)?
Did the living soul, Jesus die and was raised to life from the tomb where Jesus had lay for three days and three nights?

 

I would like to point out in these verse which you've mentioned that all of the instances of "born" are passive in Greek. That is to say, the subject is acted upon. So, obviously, there is something being done to the subject which results in his or her believing.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Here's the best book on the subject I've ever read. http://www.christianbook.com/a-treatise-on-regeneration/peter-van-mastricht/9781573581332/pd/58133X

As others have said, the term is used two ways: (1) initial making alive that which was dead (2) restoring from a corrupted state to that of no corruption. For #1, what is dead cannot put forth faith until it be made alive first. For #2, this will not conclude until glory.


Blessings!

 

This is exactly what I have been saying except I understand you do not mean the same thing I do.

However Jesus and Jesus alone is the one who has died and then been given eternal not to see corruption again life, therefore he is called the firstborn from the dead, yet there will be others born from the dead in the same manner he was then he will be the firstborn of many brethren.

Isn't this what the word of Gods says?

 

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

We shall be saved (osas I guess whenever it takes place) by the life his.

Is this his regenerated resurrected life or when he was born of Mary or both or did he have both?

Is this the kind of life we shall be saved by? 1 Thes. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Heb.9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Just food for thought.

What do you think?

 

Ummm, except for the smarter and wiser and classier Kentuckians who are fans of the (((LOUISVILLE CARDINALS!))) :thumbs:

Go Cards! Beat Kentucky! :smilewinkgrin:

 

If I recall, this has been debated recently and this was not proven to be the case. I cannot recall which thread, but John of Japan was involved, and it was a good "Greek duel" between the 2 of you.

 

The Greek is the Greek. Dr. Tom Schreiner agrees with my argument. Though I have the utmost respect for John of Japan, I will take Schreiner's word since he is a Greek and a New Testament scholar par excellence.

The Archangel