"Does Regeneration Precede or Follow Faith" part 2

Aa, In your post you used the words "new world" which I say is age with regeneration in Matt.

I was showing in Luke 20 Jesus is speaking of "that world" {Greek age} with
resurrection and am saying that these two passages are speaking of the same time/age.

Jesus does the same in Mark and Luke in the story of the rich young man story where he says in the world (Greek age) to come eternal life or life everlasting. These are the endings of the same story Matt. Mark and Luke.

It's the age of the resurrection to life. Also in Luke 20 it says they are equal to the angels and can't die again.

What made you a child of your parents? Being born?

And are the children (born) of God, being the children (born) of the resurrection.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The reason I asked about translating the Greek for born, begotten. While begotten yet unborn we can still sin and are called the children of God. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

Im not sure I follow what your saying, can you please elaborate?

 

I think any and all verbs were dealt with in great detail on this thread... http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=64286&highlight=regeneration&page=24

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1517196&postcount=234

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1514112&postcount=89

Also of note from that thread, Schreiner is not a grammarian

To the objective reader, there is not a whole lot left to say that hasn't already been said on that thread.

 

I find it interesting, and typical, that his knowledge of Christ was progressive. He didn't have it all 'just right' from the gitgo.

At first He was a man:

10 They said therefore unto him, How then were thine eyes opened?
11 He answered, The man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to Siloam, and wash: so I went away and washed, and I received sight.

Then He was a prophet:

17 They say therefore unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, in that he opened thine eyes? And he said, He is a prophet.

Then He was from God:

33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.

And finally when it was the Lord's good pleasure to reveal Himself to him, then he believed and worshiped Him as he ought:

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and he it is that speaketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

 

Exactly. When Christ first commissioned The Twelve (Mt 10, Lk 10), He told them:

“Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

They were sheep already, not goats. Lost implies something out of place, not something bound for destruction.

Christ instructed them to search for those worthy, and for those sons of peace.

“...whatsoever city or village ye shall enter, search out who in it is worthy...”

“....if a son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon him....”

How did they become 'worthy sons of peace' prior to hearing and believing the gospel? By being born of the Spirit that blows where He wills.


“for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);” Ro 2:13-15

How did these gentiles, described as DOERS of the law that had not the law, come to have that law written in their hearts? By being born of the Spirit, who blows where He wills.


“Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!” Jn 1:47

How was it that Nathanael is called a true Jew with no guile before he had even met Christ? By being born of the Spirit, who blows where He wills.


“But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.” Jn 3:21

How is it that those that come to Christ are already doing the truth and have done good works from God? By being born of the Spirit, who blows where He wills.


“He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......” Jn 3:36; “.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...” Jn5:24; “... He that believeth hath eternal life.” Jn 6:47

How is it that those that believe are already in possession of eternal life? By being born of the Spirit, who blows where He wills.


“I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.” Ps 87:4

How is it that these gentiles outside of the covenant could have known God? By being born of the Spirit, who blows where He wills.


“.....For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.” Gal 4:27

How is it that there were MORE of them among the gentiles than the Jews. They were born of the Spirit, who blows where He wills.



“........It behoveth you to be born from above” Jn 3:7 YLT

Christ was not implementing something new here. He was revealing a mystery from of old, something that had always been. The true Jew had always been he who is one inwardly, and circumcision had always been that of the heart, and the true children of Israel have always been those born of that Jerusalem which is above.

 

Deuteronomy 31:12
Assemble the people—men, women and children, and the foreigners residing in your towns—so they can listen and learn to fear the LORD your God and follow carefully all the words of this law.

John 6:
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

It has always been those who listen and learn who is His sheep, because only God is good.

 

I agree here.

 

You misunderstand, I'm not trying to discredit Mr. Schreiner, I'm sure he has probably forgotten more than I've ever learned. Your are turning this into something personal. I think you may be giving him more props than is deserved, though, and from reading the entirety of that thread, Wallace doesn't agree with his understanding either. I'm afraid you are doing the very thing you accuse me of, as if his understanding is wrong, that means yours is as well since you claim the greek supports pre-faith regeneration, and it is quite clear the text in question is not about regeneration at all, pre or post faith!

 

...and as has been pointed out already in 34 pages from that thread and 8 more here, it is quite clear...it has nothing to do with when regeneration occurs. All believers have been born again. That is what the text says, that is what we are supposed to get from it. Period.

 

Help me out.

That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory,

When is, in the regeneration?

What does, sit in the throne of his glory mean?

 

Hello brother,

Sorry for the drive by posting, and will not be able to engage as I have previously but just thought I would jot down my thoughts on the issue quickly.

Brother, there are only a handful of scholars who agree with your position, and many more who do not agree, a few are even Reformed in their theology. As with yours, these scholars, regarding the Greek, would state it is from understanding the Greek language and grammar one would/must contend for faith preceding regeneration.

I think it is from the 'fact' that many 'world class scholars' disagree and therefore this alone puts the evidence at odds with your position. As "I" stated in the previous thread which web mentions.. I believe the issue regarding the Greek is not what is said but regarding where the emphasis lies on what is said.

The very fact these scholars which Universities use to teach about the Greek language and grammar, (which I highly doubt are second and third rate scholars) in the main disagree with your position establishes, and quite conclusively it seems to me, that it is not as emphatic or 'Iron-clad' as you and others seem to think.

Anyway.. hope all is well

 

I would assume by the way everyone but myself are posting you all are only concerned with regeneration in Titus 3:5 and or John 3 if it applies to regeneration.

Being Titus 3 says, he saved us and Ephesians 2:8 says, are ye saved, and there is only way that we can be saved. Do not both of these verses have to say the very exact same thing?

I say they have to.

Washing of regeneration. Let me ask would the washing be effective without the regeneration? Could be said this way washing by regeneration.

Now can this be construed as washing? 1 John 1:7 and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. Is the preceding speaking of this Isaiah 53:12 because he hath poured out his soul unto death:

So the washing is the death of Jesus Christ. But we are saved by the washing of regeneration. Jesus had to be regenerated for the washing to be affective. Paul said it this way. 1 Cor.15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Now you should be able to see how this verse says the same as Titus 3:5 and that is Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,(Washed in his blood) much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.(By his resurrected/regenerated life)

Back to Ephesians 2. That means through faith means the same thing as washing of regeneration.

Which means that it is by The faith of Jesus that you are saved.

Also regeneration means the very same thing in Matthew 19:28 as in Titus 3:5.

Of course there is an and following regeneration in Titus 3:5.

 

Moral Necessity wrote:

On the contrary, most Calvinists I have been dealing with here for over a year define regeneration as life. They often directly compare the unregenerate to a dead person or corpse. They will say a dead person or corpse cannot perform any function, and say the unregenerate likewise cannot come to God, or believe in Jesus. They insist a person must be made spiritually alive in order to have the ability to come to God and trust in Christ.

But as I have argued, this is impossible. You cannot possibly be spiritually alive until you trust on Jesus and have your sins forgiven. Until you trust Jesus you are dead in sins, you are condemned already, the wrath of God abides on you... There are probably dozens of scriptures that clearly show a person cannot have spiritual life until AFTER they believe on Jesus.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 16:16 is as clear as it gets. The person who believes on Jesus shall be saved, the person who has not believed on Jesus is damned. Believeing is the cause, being saved is the effect.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Does John 20:31 say these scriptures were written so that we may live in order that we believe? No, it says they are written so we can believe, and that believeing we might have life. Believeing is the cause, life is the effect.

There is not a single verse in all the Bible that supports a person having spiritual life before believeing on Jesus. There are probably dozens that all show a person must first believe in order to have spiritual life.

Of course, this destroys the Calvinist view of Total Depravity, because it shows the unregenerate has the ability to believe God's promises.

 

Preferably from the book of Acts but from anywhere show me where you think Paul has gone through regeneration. Does the following sound as if he thinks he has been regenerated or is it something he is looking forward to?

Col. 3:3,4 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Phil. 3:9-14 And be found in him,(When do you think Paul thought this will take place?) not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Do you not think that eternal life is the prize of the high calling of God?)

Do you think the following is the confidence of why Paul is assured of this taking place?

2 Cor. 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Is this called the Holy Spirit of promise? Eph. 1:13,14 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Did Paul believe because of something from himself that welled up from within
himself or because Jesus called him?

The redemption of purchased possession.
Psalms 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

 

Amazing, you quote the very verse that answers your question, yet are oblivious to it. Read Ephesians 1:13 again.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

What does this verse say occured first? It says ye trusted AFTER ye heard the word of truth. So the very first thing that happened was hearing the word of truth, the scriptures.

So, what happened second? It says they trusted (believed, had faith) the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

What happened next? It says they were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise.

This verse shows in order;

#1 Hearing the word of God, the gospel of salvation
#2 Trusting or believeing the gospel
#3 Being sealed with the Holy Spirit

In John, Jesus promised that present believers would receive the Holy Spirit later.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

These people were present believers when Jesus said this. But they did not have the Holy Spirit yet. How in the world could they be regenerated if they did not have the Holy Spirit? They couldn't, and yet they were believers.

In the early days a person might receive the Holy Spirit some time later after they believed (which shows the unregenerate can believe). An example of this is in Romans.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Paul asked these Ephesians if they had received the Holy Ghost "since" they believed? Now why in the world would Paul ask such a ridiculous question if a person has to be regenerated first by the Holy Spirit to have the ability to believe?

So, you see, the scriptures clearly show a person does not receive the Holy Spirit until AFTER they trust on Christ.

And you cannot be regenerated without the Holy Spirit.

Keep asking questions, it is easy to show you that faith precedes regeneration, there are probably many dozens of scriptures that say so.

Edit- I didn't answer your direct question. Did Paul immediately believe Jesus was the Christ? No, he questioned it, look for yourself.

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Was Paul regenerated when he asked "Who art thou Lord?". I don't think so, unless you believe a person can be born again without knowing who the Lord is.

What happened next? Jesus revealed himself through his word, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

Is Paul regenerated here? No, Jesus said he is kicking against the pricks. What does that mean? It means Paul was resisting the truth that Jesus was Lord. Paul was not unfamiliar with this teaching, he was present when Stephen was stoned, he had heard the gospel before. He did not believe it, in fact, he was persecuting Christians. Does a regenerated person persecute Jesus?

But as soon as Jesus revealed himself by speaking his name, what did Paul say next?

"And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"

Now, this is the very moment Paul was saved, when he heard God's word and believed it.

And... Paul did not receive the Holy Spirit until three days later!

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.