"Does Regeneration Precede or Follow Faith" part 2

You are correct. All the time previously to this day Paul was persecuting people that believed that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah. Paul knew who the person was for whom he was persecuting. The belief did not come from the one being called but from the one doing the calling/electing. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

To our knowledge those with Paul did not believe.

 

Of course I understand I probably stand alone. And that is OK. My post 76 is where all the meat is concerning regeneration. We are neither saved or regenerated by the Holy Spirit being shed upon us but it is given to them that God calls as an earnest / assurance of being regenerated and by which that regeneration will occur as in Romans 8:11 when the age of the regeneration arrives.

I would love comments from all on post 76 and the word of God accuracy of that post or inaccurate. By the way to my knowledge most of this has come to me in the middle of sleepless nights. It is like someone showing me how to line up scripture. Sometimes I know I have heard them but have to google to find them.

 

The others did not hear the word of God.

Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

All the other men saw the light, but were not saved. Why not? Because they did not hear Jesus's voice. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And Paul wasn't magically regenerated just because the Lord appeared to him. It was only after Jesus's spoke to him and identified himself that Paul truly believed Jesus was the Son of God.

You will always see this. Was the Philipian jailer regenerated when he asked how to be saved? No, because Paul told him he needed to believe on Jesus to be saved. But if you read a little more you will see he did not actually believe on Jesus until after Paul preached the word of God to him. See for yourself.

Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

The Philpian jailer didn't believe until he took Paul and Silas home and they preached the word of God to him. And notice they also preached the word of God to everyone in his house. After hearing the word of God they all believed and were saved.

You will never find anywhere in scripture where a person is magically regenerated to believe. They must always hear and believe the word of God to be saved. Always.

 

That is saying the exact same thing! "Having heard" is past tense as is "having trusted", so the KJB translation is perfectly accurate.

Your modern versions agree:

NIV

Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

ESV

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

NASB

Eph 1:13 In *Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also *believed, you were sealed in *Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

So, your MVs do not help you one bit. They all show a person first hears the gospel, then believes the gospel, and then and only then are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

 

Man, we sure are lucky to have educated folks like you to explain scripture to us. Ephesians 1:13 seemed so simple and straightforward, I actually believed I understood it.

 

We indeed are fortunate to have scholars of the calibur of Archangel here on board with us.

 

My purpose here was to weed out the confusion between "the eternal life received upon believing" with "the awakening of or making alive the spiritually dead so that they can believe". The second is what Calvinists call regeneration.

Are you trying to say that no work of God is required to happen to us prior to believing? Surely not, for only Pelagians say that, and Augustine thoroughly dealt with them 1700 years ago. Even Arminius himself believed a work of God had to occur first to enable a person to believe. Read his own words yourself.



"WORKS OF ARMINIUS - GRACE AND FREE WILL
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IV. GRACE AND FREE WILL

Concerning grace and free will, this is what I teach according to the Scriptures and orthodox consent: Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace. That I may not be said, like Pelagius, to practice delusion with regard to the word "grace," I mean by it that which is the grace of Christ and which belongs to regeneration. I affirm, therefore, that this grace is simply and absolutely necessary for the illumination of the mind, the due ordering of the affections, and the inclination of the will to that which is good. It is this grace which operates on the mind, the affections, and the will; which infuses good thoughts into the mind, inspires good desires into the actions, and bends the will to carry into execution good thoughts and good desires. This grace goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, and co-operates lest we will in vain. It averts temptations, assists and grants succour in the midst of temptations, sustains man against the flesh, the world and Satan, and in this great contest grants to man the enjoyment of the victory. It raises up again those who are conquered and have fallen, establishes and supplies them with new strength, and renders them more cautious. This grace commences salvation, promotes it, and perfects and consummates it.

I confess that the mind of a natural and carnal man is obscure and dark, that his affections are corrupt and inordinate, that his will is stubborn and disobedient, and that the man himself is dead in sins. And I add to this -- that teacher obtains my highest approbation who ascribes as much as possible to divine grace, provided he so pleads the cause of grace, as not to inflict an injury on the justice of God, and not to take away the free will to that which is evil.

I do not perceive what can be further required from me. Let it only be pointed out, and I will consent to give it, or I will shew that I ought not to give such an assent. Therefore, neither do I perceive with what justice I can be calumniated on this point, since I have explained these my sentiments, with sufficient plainness, in the theses on free will which were publicly disputed in the university."





This is what Ezek.37 is about also, with the valley of dry bones. This is the "regeneration" that Calvinists speak of, as well as Arminius. God says, "'Son of man, can these bones live?' And I answered, 'O Lord God, you know.' Again He said to me, 'Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.' Thus says the Lord God to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the Lord."

And in vs.12, he says, "Thus says the Lord God, 'Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, my people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, my people. I will put my Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land.'"

Blessings and fellowship

 

A picture speaks a thousand words. The picture I showed represented your confusing double-talk. You take a thousand words to try to explain a verse (falsely) that a child could easily understand.

This is laughable, even your MVs show that a person first hears the gospel, then believes the gospel, and only then is sealed by the Holy Spirit. You really should translate the scriptures for us, seeing how you know Greek and Hebrew better than the KJB translators, or even the men who translated the MVs.

[offensive remarks removed]