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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Yeshua1, Jul 14, 2012.
Would either of them be viewed as being a "christian church?"
Why not include Presbyterians in that question (or Methodists , UCC and others for that matter)? Does the belief in sacramental grace put someone outside of Christian belief? It seems on this board that if you are a Catholic, it does. If you are Protestant, it probably doesn't. Is this consistant?
Do the protestant groups see salvation grace imparted by god in and thryu sacraments, or not?
Sacramentalism puts one outside the gospel of Jesus Christ and is a false perverted gospel - Rom. 4:11
Do the protestantgroups that have 'sacraments" view them in same fashion as the RCC does?
Sacramentalism is the doctrine that justifying and sustaining saving grace is imparted through the ordinances. Every denomination that view baptism and/or the Lord's supper as literally salvational is a gospel rejector.
Do the Anglicasns/Luthereyn/presbyterians see it that way?
No sacramentalist sees it my way or they would not be sacramentalists. The majority of Lutherans do see it that way but attempt to explain it so that it does not appear that way.
I believe all of them believe that some LITERAL form of grace is conveyed through the ordinances even though Presbyterians and some Episcopalians may deny the ordinances are salvational.
From the Spring 2011 ARBCA Update, a 'Reformed Baptist' newsletter:
"The Means of Grace, though very familiar to all members of the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America, drew much scrutiny from the pulpit and the pews at this year’s ARBCA General Assembly, held at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in La Mirada, Calif. The GA, which attracted 149 attendees, featured far more public discussion of various issues, particularly the question of how to respond to differences of opinion, some of which have cropped up recently. . . .Dr. Richard Barcellos of Heritage Baptist Church, Owensboro, Ky., spoke on “The Lord’s Supper as Means of Grace,” focusing on the benefits that communion conveys to believers–it’s not just a memorial meal. Those benefits include sanctifying grace indued to the soul, the benefits of Christ’s body and blood nourishes believers’ souls, the frequency of the supper, and its links with the past, “do this in remembrance of Me”, present “the cup of blessing which we drink,” and future “do this till I come,” as recorded by Christ’s directives. He noted that “baptism is a sacrament of spiritual birth; the Lord’s Supper is a sacrament of spiritual feeding.”"
I veiw Reformed Baptists as nothing more than immersed protestants. Hence, it is no great surprise that among their other false doctrines they assume another protestant false doctrine. We do not fellowship or exchange baptism with Reformed Baptists and I don't consider them any more of a "Christian" church than I do Protestant churches.
The gospel is one essential but there are ecclesiastical essentials to be regard ecclesiatically "Chrisitan" and Reformed Baptists do not possess those essentials. Their church government is foreign to the New Testament as is their practice of baptism and the Lord's Supper.
I agree with most of what you stated. I think the vast majority of Episcopalians do not believe that the sacraments of the Lord Supper or Baptism have any salvic value and most Episcopalians I know are also universalists. There are very few orthodox believing Episcopalians left in The Episcopal Church. Most bible-believing Episcopalians have left for the ACNA or for convergence churches. The Episcopal Church voted in their General Convention last week OVERWHELMINGLY to permit Same-Sex 'Blessings' in their churches. That denomination has long lost it's theological moorings. Katherine-Jefforts Schori (Presiding heretic-Bishop!) has denied that Jesus Christ is 'the way, the truth and the life', saying 'I just can't keep God in that small of a box'!
Again, as you said, 'the majority of Lutherans do see it that way'. The ones that don't, do not adhere to the Lutheran Confessions and are also liberal minded like the Episcopalians (the ELCA is not far behind TEC in the 'lost their theological moorings' area as well). You are right, Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, etc. do not see sacramentalism your way. If of the churches mentioned agreed with you, they wouldn't be sacramentalists.
Rather as with Baptists, ask two Anglicans a question and you'll get three different answers!
The official position of the Church of England to which I belong is that salvation is through faith alone, however it has to be a 'true and lively faith' (per James 2:24-26). Saving grace is thus imparted by that alone; officially the doctrine reads quite Calvinistically but there's enough 'wiggle room' for quite a bit of Arminianism in there too.
The purpose of the sacraments is to impart sanctifying grace but that is not the only means of such impartation: prayer, Bible study, worship, both corporate and individual, all do that too.
I came to know Jesus at my confirmation. Not that I was saved by confirmation, but that I realized the Christ as my personal Saviour. Baptism at birth left the responsibility of later redemptive acts to the people who stood beside them making that commitment. The baptism itself was not salvatoric.
There are more evangelical Anglican churches in England than in America. Even Canada has a fair share of evangelical Anglican churches.
It is interesting to note that the majority of Christian books at the turn of the last century were written by English Anglicans. Those books are treasured even to-day.
I was Anglican when I came to Canada in 1948, and remained so as a chaplain in the Canadian Army through Korea and til 1958, when I became a Baptist pastor. This came about when I attended a Baptist Seminary in Toronto.
In the area where I live now, there are very few Baptist churches and they are miles apart. The Anglican Rector in my home village is evangelical and I even led a weekly Bible study there. I have used my Common Prayer Book throughout my life as a personal worship and spiritual guide.
I can't speak for England now because I haven't been over for a few years now, but I do recall people in the countryside who walked two miles each way just to attend church, and they were solid believers.
I just find it hard to talk down about any denomination in totality because true believers are everywhere. We may differ in some aspects, but many Baptists fall into that category, even in fundamental circles.
Well said, Jim!:thumbsup:
Did you ever meet Dr. Cole?
The late C.D. Cole was one of my professors at seminary. He taught Biblical Theology. A great man of God.
If I am not mistaken, Dr. Cole was a member of Bryan Station Baptist Church, Lexington, Kentucky, when he passed on to glory.
One of the things that saddens me greatly is when one group takes a perfectly good word and perverts it, then others embrace the perverted meaning and reads it into those who are using the term correctly - that is prejudice and/ or ignorence talking. The reality is that a sacrement is nothing more then an act of allegience, no matter what Rome says, to call baptism or the Lord's table a sacrement in reformed terms is to say it is a public declaration of our allegence to Christ Jesus.
Whilst you are entitled to your view in the grand scheme of things it is worthless my freind, for it is simply your view!
Wow, well where do your "baptist" toots lie if not in the protestant reformation?
How is the reformed baptist church government alien to the scriptures? How is our practise of baptism alien to the scriptures, and our adminsitration of the Lord's supper? These are serious charges that shouldn't just eb thrown about unless one can actually back them up with facts!
So were the early Baptists "prejudiced" and "ignorent" when in adapting the Westminster Confession they dropped every single mention of the word "sacrament" in their London Baptist Confession of 1689?
Form and substance only. Replacing 'sacrament' with 'ordinance' doesn't change that; you can't even slip a sheet of paper between the definition of communion in that Confession and that in the Anglican 39 Articles!
Oh dear! You've just invited a load of cack from the usual suspects based on The Trail of Blood.
I'll put the kettle on...