Does the Bible say the Jews killed Christ?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Jun 11, 2003.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    As Christians we must readily accept and believe God's Word - both the Old and New Testament.

    So who does the New Testament "say" is responsible for the death of Christ?

    #1. We ALL are - since Christ died as a substitutionary sacrifice for our sins "And not Our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" 1John 2:2.

    Christ came on a mission - from the start - to die for our sins.

    #2. But He could have died the 2nd death in the Garden of Gethsemane just as well as on the Cross. God knew the end from the beginning and so "predicted" the betrayal - but "betrayal" is not part of "atonement" in the strictest sense. All that was need was the substitutionary and miraculous suffering of the 2nd death for all mankind.

    So here is the question - Does the Bible say the Jews were directly responsible?

    What about
    Acts 2:22-23?
    Acts 3:13-15
    Acts 4:8-10
    Acts 5:28-30
    Matt 16:21
    Lk 24:20
    Luke 23:14-15,24

    Do they really mean the "jews" were responsible - directly responsible for something specific?

    Is Mel Gibbson right?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    The Jews were an instrument God used to accomplish His purpose. Just like He used Judas in the betrayal. The Jews had no choice. It was all in Gods plan.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Ah yes that is the text that says
    "Jerusalem, Jerusalem - who wanted to be faithful to her messiah, how often you tried to persuade me to hold you close to my heart - BUT I needed you to betray your Messiah and to kill the prophets I sent to you - not just one - but many. I "needed" wickedness to prevail in Jersusalem so I could work out my plan". Jebediah 6:66

    Oh no wait a minute! That is the wrong chapter.

    Here is the right one!

    Matt 23
    37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and You were UNwilling.
    38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!



    God so loved the "World" (Including the Jews).

    God said in Luke 7 "They Rejected God's PURPOSE for them" 7:30. God was not "calling them to failure or rebellion or betrayal" - not according to "His Word" anyway.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    "HE Came to His Own -but His Own received Him not" John 1.

    Notice that it does not say "He came to others - but relied on His Own to betray Him so He could finally be crucified as He planned".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    Go back to verse 13, 14, 15, 16, 23, 25, 26, 27, 29, and find out who Jesus is addressing here. Is He referring to the Jewish people in general? I dont think so. He was talking to leaders who shut up the kingdom of heaven to their children who Jesus wanted to gather in. This is not a verse that teaches free-will if you look at it in its context.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    When Christ says this of "Jerusalem" He is addressing the nation (but not saying that every individual in the nation is lost or rejected).

    When Christ says "your house is left to you desolate" He is pronouncing the ultimate national curse in the OT of final rebellion.

    See 1Kings 9:6-9, Ezek 11:21-23, Jer 22:5

    So the conclusion seems to be that "yes" the texts in acts to show "specific responsibility".

    And the point is is that it is not "fatalistic responsibility" where God pre-doomed Israel to fail at this point.

    Rather "They rejected God's Purpose for Themselves" Luke 7:30 speaking of "This Generation" 7:31 that refused the ministry of John and were setting up to reject their own Messiah.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller
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  8. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    The Jews had no choice. It was all in Gods plan.

    Of course, it's not possible that God's plan took into account the Jews' free choice in his foreknowledge, thus - by way of predestination - brought about their instrumentality in the work of universal redemption?

    Never discount man's free will. When that is accomplished, we are no longer lovers, adorned for our Bride. Love demands a volitional act of the will, and love, which is not free, is not love.

    And consequently, never discount the supreme sovereignty and predestination of God. If God is not sovereign, then he is not God.

    The mix of divine sovereignty and free will is a mystery, and no man can encompass, intellectually, the innerworking of the two in combination. Yet, we know that the sovereignty of God entails man's free will, which itself is a natural gift from the Creator. We have nothing, which has not been given to us from on High.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    Hardsheller almost posted.

    I would love to know what he was thinking.

    I almost agree with Carson on this one - (except I go for the total depravity thing).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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