Does the Bible teach such a thing as Spirit Baptism?

Amen! Another real Baptist heard from!

 

Is this post and the arguments put forth in it unanswerable by the opposition? No one has yet to deal with even one exegetical point of the text or one objection put forth here. However, let me throw out another. Hank, Thomas, and others say that the Spirit baptism was a one time event that happened at Pentecost to the church. The church at Corinth, which Paul describes as being baptized in/by/with one Spirit in one body, was still 20 years or so in the future. In fact, there was likely not one member of the church at Corinth that was present at the one time "Spirit baptism" that Thomas and Hank would affirm. So how does Paul say that these Corinthian believers were baptized in the Spirit at 1) an event they were not at and 2) prior to their salvation? When one looks at the text straightforwardly, it seems virtually impossible to come to a contrary conclusion apart from some theological presupposition which validity has yet to be affirmed from Scritpure. No one has shown one theological or exegetical reason why Spirit baptism is not in view here.

Furthermore, if Paul meant "water baptism" then why didn't he say that? "udor" is no where in the context. Can any body point to a case of water baptism being described as en eni pneumati? I asked previously for some evidence that pneuma/pneumati is used in a similar context to refer to an attitude or a unity in the church. No one has put one forth yet. Why?

I do not believe this is a fundamental doctrine. I do believe that there is a misunderstanding on the part of some that will ultimately have little practical effect. However, I am seriously interested in someone who can defend this position from the text and theology. Any takers willing to dialogue here?

 

There has been no ad hominem.

I did not characterise your faith as fear. I said that you seem to fear charismatic theology, the which I inferred from your rather obvious perjorative reference to charismatic practice ealier. You are obviously concerned about charismatic theology (as if that were a necessary outworking of as theology of spirit baptism).

Nor did I question your cognitive abilities. I pointed to what should, I think, be an obvious gap between what you mean by Spirit baptism and what others here mean by it. In short your not talkign about the same thing it seems! Tha isn't ad hominem, its facilitation! I advocate that we get a definition of terms here!

The only thing I have consistently done is criticise your lack of evidence from the immediate context of 1 Co. 12:13 for the position you advocate. You have not shown in any way that your interpretation is favored by the context. Your conclusions are non sequitur. You refuse to deal withthe questions Pastor Larry (and myself) have put to you (though Larry put it far better than I).

This I have done. And, as in the other thread, rather than answer the question, you choose to find a reason to not address these issues.

That, my brother, is YOUR choice. if you have no answer, then fine. But please do not try to make it look like you've been run off. Such is manifestly not the case.

 

I sincerely hope a spirit of animosity or a root of bitterness does not spring up here.
It does appear to be emerging. I am sure we all want to edify one another but I am remembering the frog in the pot of water. Things heat up without our realizing it.

I am sure the objective is to edify one another. I just wanted to remind us all of that (including myself) and not get carried away with carnal arguments (Hey, we are Baptists).

Actually I never said one way or another what my view of the 1 Corinthian 12:13 passage is though it seems that I was numbered among the opposition .

Water baptism (in my view) consists of three basic elements. A picture of our participation in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. A symbolic representation of Jesus Christ placing His body in the Spirit of God. A metaphor of Cleansing.
The three are related. At the rebirth we are cleansed and placed into the Body of Christ to be resurrected on the Last Day.

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"

My view:

The word "drink" is the key metaphorical word relating Spirit with “water” so this passage is illustrating a spiritual aspect through (most likely) the ordinance of water baptism.

Picture a body of water, in modern gentile terminology a swimming pool. Christ is in the pool that He has filled once (called the Spirit of Christ). At the rebirth of the individual believer, He places him/her into the pool. We then all participate (drink) of the body of water we have been placed in.

HankD

[ September 13, 2002, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

Which is why I bowed out gracefully in spite of the adhominem attempts to drag me back in. The last time I responded to one of his posts he got so angry he organized a witch hunt to have me kicked off the BB. Once burned, twice warned.

 

There are many prophetic passages that speak of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Mat. 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33 all of these are very similar verses and they all were spoken by John the Baptist and tell us that Jesus would be the One who will bapitze with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Himself mentioned it in Acts 1:5 "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

These prophetic passages were fulfilled in Acts 2 but the baptism of the Holy Spirit still occurs today. It is that imperceptible work of God by which the believing, repentant sinner is placed by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ at the very moment of his salvation.

Gal 3:26 "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." This is clearly referring to salvation.

The very process of the Holy Spirit placing you into the body of Christ is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

1Cor 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

It is only a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that could unite Jews with Gentiles. This is an unrepeated work of the Holy Spirit in our lives, unlike the "filling" of the Holy Spirit which needs to occur daily at least.

 

I honestly don't think he has any preach.

All he does is complain about ad hominems that don't exist.

I took the time to consult 3 differnet commentarties, all of which see "spirit" in 1Co. 12:13 as that which we are baptised into. So far nothing to suggest that Doc's interpretation is correct.

 

I sent a PM to Thomas earlier today around 3:00 EDT, reminding him that his post contained factual inaccuracies and allowing him ample time to correct them. Since he has not done so, I will respond. There was no ad hominem on my part. In fact, I addressed only his views, asking honestly for a response. Any charge of ad hominem can be clearly refuted by looking at the above exchanges. The last time he responded to one of my posts did not result in an organized witch hunt. In fact, the last response was a part of a worthwhile exchange regarding biblical texts. The events to which he refers dealt with a number of posts by him to other in which charges were made but not substantiated, personal attacks were leveled. However, at no time did I try to get him revmoved from the Baptist Board. I simply asked for either a substantiation fo the charges to which I would respond with a proper apology or an apology for him for his misstatements. Even here, had he edited his post to reflect the true state of affairs, I would not have responded. I dealt with him personally to no avail. Now his choices have necessitated a public response on my part.

Larry

 

None from here. I am sincerely seeking someone who is willing to defend this position. Having studied the baptism in some depth several years ago, consulting all the major commentaries, theologies, and works on teh Holy Spirit, I did not find one person who supported this view. I am asking that someone answer these questions. I would love to know how they reconcile what appear to be problems with the text. If there is animosity and bitterness, it is most certainly not from me. As I have said, this is not a fundamental doctrine. It is one that needs consideration though.

 

In my opinion Pastor its getting close to animosity.

But I'll apologize for everyone. I started it by bringing it up. I'm sorry I brought it up.

Personally it is grievous to me (not that I'm anyone special) when we get into the bicker mode.
But, I can understand because there are so many pastors here and one of their functions is to protect the sheep.

But from the wolves not from ourselves!

Anyway my view kind of straddles the fence.
I believe the Paul is at least alluding to water baptism in the 1 Corinthians 12:12 passage because of the metaphorical term "drink".

I believe it was a custom of Paul's day for the proselyte to Judaism to drink some of the "mikvah" water in which he was immersed. He might have that in mind. The water had to be pristine from creation hence most mikvahs had their source from deep springs (today rainwater is allowed). The Jews had an almost superstitious belief that a supernatural infusion was caused by immersing in the water of mikvah.

Very few Christians realize that baptism has its roots in the ancient Jewish ritual of mikvah.

http://www.his.com/~chabad/Mikvah.htm

One problem that plagues these studies of relating the Spirit to water (metaphorically) in the Scripture are the prepositions used. The Spirit is immaterial as opposed to water. Which is probably why different points of view appearing to be in oppostion can be true.
We can be "in" the Spirit while the Spirit is "in" us.

Water is probably the best metaphor to use in relationship to these prepositions.

Think of a of a glass plunged into a sink full of water. The glass is in the water and suddenly the water fills the glass and the water is in the glass. So both are true simultaneously. The glass is in the water. The water is in the glass. We are called vessels in the Scripture, the Spirit is often symbolized by water.

My opinion(s) of course.

HankD

 

Brethren I Pray that we can call a cease fire. Please no keeping score the ground is level at the foot of the cross.
Murph

[ September 14, 2002, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]