Does the Church have one Foundation? Or does the Foundation have many churches?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Nov 21, 2008.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't want to hijack my own thread so I am starting a new one.

    I really don't understand why the concept of a universal church is so hard to grasp.

    A few weeks ago I was unable to attend my normal, Baptist church so we visited an Orhodox Presbyterian church that is a few miles away.

    We of course do not agree on baptism but it was wonderful to worship with this group of fellow believers.

    Oh, and at the end of the service they had a communion service and we were welcome to participate (we have visited this church before and they do know us there)

    The point is that they recognized us, even as baptist as part of the same Church.

    If you do not believe that all believers are part of one true church, what DO you believe about the church? "Matt. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. " And what does that verse refer to if there is no "Church" singular?
     
  2. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,169
    Likes Received:
    0

    You're Catholic (Catholicos: Universal) eeeewwww. :laugh: No I was just commenting on what others on this board have said when I started the thread comparing Ecclessia to Hyteria. And Everyone seemed to be offended by Jesus starting a Church (singular). There was an insistance in plurality of churches and it seemed to me that another baptist using Church as a singular rather than a plural was strange. But then how do you define this invisible Church. What must be the common thread of belief? How is heresy determined? What is considered Orthodoxy? See the problems.
     
  3. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    the Kingdom of God on earth does embrace all true believers. When it comes to the churches on earth, we generally think of the local church. Throughout the New Testament the apostles are always adressing specific churches, or a specific church.

    That's my opinion, for what it is worth. Yes, I do accept the brethren from all churches and have enjoyed fellowshipping in my old Churches of England.

    I have also shared the pulpit in a number of different churches. Our commonality is Jesus Christ.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  4. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jim, I totally agree on the locality of the physical church.

    BUt I surely don't see how the local church precludes the universal, or catholic church.
     
  5. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dale, I don't believe in the universal church either. It doesn't exist in my mind. I believe that when Jesus ascended into heaven to assume His place on the throne, the Kingdom of God or Heaven was established consisting of all twice-born believers. This will be united at His second coming. In keeping with amillennial thinking.

    In keeping with modernity, however, there are people who will refer to the "church" and if we are to keep up with them and minimize argumentation, we simply overlook this misconception and get on with the discussion at hand.

    Cheers,

    Jim

    PS> Even when we formed our Baptist group in Canada it was called The Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada..we are grouped for fellowship and not a denomination of union.
     
  6. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,169
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm sorry I'm a bit confused. Here is why:

    and then there is this post:

    So which is it?
     
  7. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    When Jesus spoke of building his church in Matthew 16, he was referring to building his assembly, his congregation, which at that time include the twelve to whom he spoke.

    Two chapters later, Jesus instructs his disciples on church discipline, which by definition involves a local congregation. When he says, in v. 17 "tell it to the church," he is talking about a local congregation. Jesus had established the ordinances during his ministry.

    When Jesus gave his Great Commission in Matthew 28, he gave it to an assembled group. Only a local congregation can carry out that commission.

    In the days before Pentecost, the only church which existed was assembled. On the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit fell on an assembled body, not some invisible fantasy.

    It was the local church at Jerusalem which sent out Stephen and Philip to evangelize. It was the local church at Jerusalem which sent Peter and some others down to Samaria when some hated Samaritans got saved. It was the congregation at Antioch which set out Paul and Silas, and to which they reported at the end of their first missionary journey. No Universal church ever did that.

    There is an entity made up of all believers. It's called the kingdom.

    One day there will actually be one church made up of all believers. It will be the great general assembly in heaven. There will be no division there, for we will all hear the truth directly from the lips of the Lord Jesus.

    If you must have your Universal church, you are welcome to it. Just understand that it is dysfunctional. That some of its members are saved despite the teachings of their denomination. There is widespread disunity and division. And as an entity supposedly charged with the Great Commission, it is a colossal failure. It can't even have a meeting.
     
  8. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's because the local church exists and the universal church does not.

    That's because the local church has as reason for its existence; the universal church does not.

    That's because the local church is usually easy to find. There's a good reason the Universal Church is called invisible.
     

Share This Page

Loading...