Does the New Testament Teach The Plan or Individual Election?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Apr 4, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    Some hold that it is the Plan of God that was/is Elected, that the Plan to put those of faith in jesus into Church and than start the predestination process
    others that the NT teaches us individual election, that saints were elected, not the plan itself

    is it either /or, or could both be somehow true?
     
    #1 JesusFan, Apr 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2011
  2. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    God's plan for redemption was not "elected" God chose the Word to be His Lamb, His Redeemer, and when He did He elected corporately those His redeemer would redeem,hence, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. God did choose to formulate His redemption plan, according to His purpose of creation, to choose a people for His own possession who would bring glory to Him.

    Anyone God places spiritually in Christ was elected corporately from before the foundation of the world because when the person is placed in Christ, He becomes part of the corporately elected group of those Christ would redeem. And so our individual election for salvation is done by the means of the Holy Spirit baptizing us into Christ, and sealing us in Christ with the Holy Spirit, and this individual election is based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.

    So by the numbers:
    (1) God chose Christ - an individual election,
    which resulted in,
    (2) God corporately electing those Christ would redeem, and
    (3) God chose us individually during our lifetime and placed us in Christ and thus into the corporately elected group based on crediting our faith as righteousness.
     
  3. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    humm...just Mans logic,

    Now if you look at Scripture......

    it says..


    Isa 42...
    Pretty clear...right?
     
  4. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,204
    Likes Received:
    611
    No, because the verses in Isaiah 42 are talking about someone who was chosen for service, not salvation.

    1 Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations.

    2 He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets.

    3 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smouldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

    4 he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope.
     
  5. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,423
    Likes Received:
    72
    [29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
    (Romans 8:29-30 ESV)

    One may disagree regarding the mechanics of election, but individuals are clearly in mind.
     
  6. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello InTheLight,

    Not really. :) But I do thank you for disagreeing. This gives me cause to post the rest of the chapter..:)

    Please notice the particular

    Isa 42...

    1 But now, this is what the LORD says—
    he who created you, Jacob,
    he who formed you, Israel:
    “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
    I have summoned you by name; you are mine.
    2 When you pass through the waters,
    I will be with you;
    and when you pass through the rivers,
    they will not sweep over you.
    When you walk through the fire,
    you will not be burned;
    the flames will not set you ablaze.
    3 For I am the LORD your God,
    the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
    I give Egypt for your ransom,
    Cush[a] and Seba in your stead.

    notice HE GAVE EGYPT FOR YOUR RAMSOM.

    This is saying He KILLED Egyptians. He...that is GOD killed Egyptians. Why?????

    The next verse tells us....

    4 Since you are precious and honored in my sight,
    and because I love you,
    God KILLED Egyptians, he killed CUSHITes,,,,,,He Killed Sedaits....BECAUSE HE LOVED HIS PEOPLE.

    Please notice the rest of verse 4...

    I will give people in exchange for you,
    nations in exchange for your life.


    WHAT???? God will give up people....will exchange people for the ones he loves???

    But God loves everyone the same way....right??


    Now notice the great divide of people...

    5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you;
    I will bring your children from the east
    and gather you from the west.
    6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
    and to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’
    Bring my sons from afar
    and my daughters from the ends of the earth
    7 everyone who is called by my name,
    whom I created for my glory,
    whom I formed and made.”

    NOTICE...this is GOD gathering HIS people. The ones he made for his glory. Its not all of mankind here. Just his people.

    NOW the rest of mankind..
    The dead....the blind....the deaf

    8 Lead out those who have eyes but are blind,
    who have ears but are deaf.
    9 All the nations gather together
    and the peoples assemble.
    Which of their gods foretold this
    and proclaimed to us the former things?
    Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right,
    so that others may hear and say, “It is true.”


    So you have two groups. You have Gods people and you have the blind, and deaf.


    Then God says to his people...


    10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
    “and my servant whom I have chosen,
    so that you may know and believe me
    and understand that I am he.
    Before me no god was formed,
    nor will there be one after me.
    11 I, even I, am the LORD,
    and apart from me there is no savior.
    12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
    I, and not some foreign god among you.
    You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God.




    ******



    I am so thankful God loves me. Are you thankful he choose you in love?
     
  7. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    The apostle John, in his second letter makes a specific reference to an elect individual.

     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,379
    Likes Received:
    728
    Yes.....good post...add in Isa49...and the picture gets painted of The elect Servant,and His people in saving covenant union In Him.

    These false ideas,chosen only to service,chosen corporately,are just irrational resisting of the truth...enjoy your solid posts brother..
     
  9. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,204
    Likes Received:
    611
    Actually it's Isa. 43. And please note the OP's thread title: "Does the NEW TESTAMENT TEACH....?" So why answer with an Old Testament passage?

    Yes, his corporately chosen people, the nation of Israel. By applying this chapter to saved Gentiles of the present day you are twisting scripture in a mighty way to fit your theology.
     
    #9 InTheLight, Apr 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 5, 2011
  10. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes...but not for salvation. This is talking about sanctification, being conformed to Christ's image.
     
  11. Osage Bluestem

    Osage Bluestem
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2011
    Messages:
    423
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe that before the foundation of the world God chose his elect and reprobated the reprobates.
     
  12. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,204
    Likes Received:
    611
    Well, sure, but if you change these words,

    "whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son"

    to these words,

    "whom he foreknew he also predestined to be elected by grace to salvation"

    you can get a whole new interpretation of this verse!
     
  13. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,423
    Likes Received:
    72
    The concept of sanctification is included in verse 29, but verse 30 also explicitly refers to glorification and justification.

    [29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
    (Romans 8:29-30 ESV)


    Using the outline of verse 30:

    Predestination----->Calling---->Justification----->Glorification

    Predestination is directly linked to calling, which is directly linked to justification.
     
  14. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,423
    Likes Received:
    72

    You don't need a new interpretation. You have verse 30:

    And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
     
  15. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    You cannot interpret verse 29 through verse 30. Verse 30 is a continuation of "those" in 29, which are believers being molded in Christ's image. The predestined in verse 30 (believers) again are not to salvation. Believers have been called, justified and eventually glorified.
     
  16. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,423
    Likes Received:
    72
    Actually, you not only can do just that; you should. Verse 30 is the culmination of his discussion in verse 29.

    Regardless, verse 30 taken alone is enough to seal the argument. Believers are not called and justified. Nonbelievers are called. Belief/faith is the means through which one is justified.

    One is not called because of one's faith. Such a scenario would make calling contingent on justification, which is opposite of Paul's trajectory here.
     
  17. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Believers have not been called and justified?! How else could they have been believers? One is called to faith, what the text supports, not because of one's faith.
     
  18. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    not called because of ones faith but to faith. If believers have not been called and justified how did the become believers?!
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,379
    Likes Received:
    728
    Here is how.....
    it does not say as many as believed were ordained to eternal life. it says;
    and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed:thumbs:
     
  20. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Seeing that this thread is swinging towards foreknowledge/foreordainment, here is a verse to chew on:

    1 Cor. 1: 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    See how this is worded? The Gospel is God's way to save those that believe. So, right here is a prime example of God's foreknowledge at work, fellas.
     

Share This Page

Loading...